Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay. Your colleague has about 25 seconds to make his question and get an answer.
Mr. Baker, do you have a very quick one?
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Yes.
Is there any indication, Mr. Dion, that anything has been done by anyone in the public service—in the executive branch or by anyone else—that has prevented you from fully performing your work effectively in this case?
5:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, there is nothing of that nature.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Thank you.
Thank you, all. You did it right within time.
Mr. Fortin, you have two and a half minutes, followed by Mr. Julian for two and a half minutes.
Mr. Fortin.
5:50 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Dion, you have a certain security level that enables you to access all the documents without redactions.
Am I right to think that the law clerk has the same security level as the Ethics Commissioner?
5:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't know the law clerk's security level, sorry. My level is “top secret”. He can compare it with mine.
5:50 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay.
Can you tell me whether the law clerk may have received all the documents without redactions, possibly with notes from the Clerk of the Privy Council suggesting what material could be redacted?
5:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think that the clerk tried to make a distinction. There's indeed a distinction between the executive branch and the legislative branch. You're obviously part of the legislative branch.
I'm an officer of the House of Commons. However, I have the power to require documents to be produced. I did so, and this time I received them.
5:50 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
In your opinion, shouldn't the law clerk have received the same thing that you received?
5:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't have an opinion on that, Mr. Fortin. I'm not qualified to provide one.
5:50 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay.
From an ethical standpoint, I imagine that part of your mandate involves ensuring that the government provides proper reports that meet the applicable standards when Parliament makes a request.
Parliament is asking that unredacted documents be given to the law clerk. From an ethical standpoint, should the government not have responded to that request?
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
My title contains the word “ethics”. However, that's about all that includes any reference to ethics in the act. The rest focuses almost exclusively on conflict of interest, a conflict between a public interest and a private interest. That's all.
I have no authority to provide opinions on ethical matters other than conflict of interest.
I'm being honest with you.
5:55 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Yes, I know.
You seem so competent and personable.
I would have appreciated it if you were able to answer all my questions. Obviously, this wasn't the case. I want to repeat what I said earlier. I almost want to apologize for asking you, on behalf of the entire committee, to appear today. I think that, unfortunately, you can provide only limited responses, Mr. Dion.
That isn't your fault, and I understand this.
Thank you.
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Thank you.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Thank you. You're right on time, Rhéal.
Mr. Julian, you have two and a half minutes.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Dion.
You spoke earlier about the unredacted documents that you received.
I want to know what process was used to obtain these documents, especially since the documents are cabinet confidences. Did you send a letter to the Clerk of the Privy Council? What steps did you take?
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Each time we start an examination, we first determine who we think may have information pertaining to what we're trying to review. We make a list of people and organizations and we write a very clear letter to them. The letter makes it very clear that we want to see everything that relates directly or indirectly to the topic.
In my opening remarks, I said that I couldn't tell you whom we asked for what material until the release of the report. You'll see the list of witnesses and an indication of the sources that we consulted. However, until the report is released, the act unfortunately prohibits me from telling you to whom we sent a letter.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Perhaps we can send you the form letter requested. This will give you an idea of the general parameters without specifying to whom the letter was addressed.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Okay.
You said earlier, in response to Mr. Poilievre's question, that we may not have asked for the same documents. That's quite true. We have a motion, which probably wasn't adhered to. Mr. Shugart's presentation suggests that the executive branch didn't care to strictly adhere to what we were asking for. That said, your form letter is the letter that requests cabinet confidences. This will give us a way to compare what we asked for and what you asked for.
Can you send it to us?
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'll seek advice on whether providing the form letter would violate the provisions of the act. If not, I'll send the letter to the clerk so that she can pass it on to the committee members.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
This would help us further develop our questions and determine whether you received what you asked for.
How many pages did you receive in the end?
5:55 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't know.
All I know is that we received over 5,000 pages.