Finance Committee on Oct. 11th, 2023

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think I have the distinction of being the westernmost MP at the table today, although I come from the geographical centre of Canada and the northeast corner of Winnipeg.

I want to ask Mr. Boyd this question. Yesterday we were in Charlottetown and we heard from the guaranteed basic income coalition. We've been talking a lot about resources available for families. I know you're very busy and preoccupied with directly serving members in your community, but if you had some time.... Within the sector, folks are talking about a guaranteed basic income and what it might mean for folks to have access to those kinds of resources.

Do you support the idea of a demonstration project on Prince Edward Island?

[Alex Boyd]

Thank you for that question. It's a question that comes up a lot in our sector.

I sit on an innovation committee for Food Banks Canada, where we're trying to dream about what the food bank network will look like. We're about 40 years in from when most food banks were created in the early eighties, and we're asking what it will look like in 40 years.

That is a topic that comes up consistently. If people had more resources available, they would be able to spend those resources to get the things they need. It is part of the solution, but it's not the solution in its entirety. Food insecurity has existed for almost as long as humans have existed, so we need to have a robust thought process on how we address it. Certainly in part of it, food education has to come into it, as well as taking care of the food we've created.

We're working on a project right now to create a food rescue centre, specifically because we are wasting so much food that we've spent the resources to create as a society. We've had the farmers spend the fuel to plow the fields to plant the food, and then because the market is soft or because there's no way to get it from point A to point B or there's no one to take it, we say that we'll just plow it back into the ground, but we've already spent the resources to use it, so we need to find a way to capture those resources. There's zero reason to throw food away if there are people in our community who need food.

I use the word “criminal”, and I use it wrongly. Admittedly, it's not criminal, but there's something morally wrong with our saying that we're willing to just throw food out en masse when we have people in our communities who are struggling to feed their children. We have to look at things very broadly when it comes to food insecurity. Income is certainly a part of that conversation.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I want to come back to the question of food waste.

When I was in high school, I had a teacher who had done some work in Bolivia. One of the stories he told that really made an impression on me was of crowds of families who didn't have access to food in any meaningful way, watching as they poured gallons of milk out in the street into a drain. They were doing it in order to support milk prices for those who could purchase it.

I wonder if you can speak a bit to some of the ways in which food waste is created in order to support higher prices at the grocery store and higher profits for grocers.

[Alex Boyd]

That's an excellent question. I don't think our system is quite so blatant with it, but I'm sure the same sort of thing does exist in some fashion.

We are much more concerned about the beauty of food, the presentation of food and the price of food than we are about the health and the accessibility of food for the people who need it. Many times, because of a lack of labour, they can't glean the field. Food is left in the field to be ploughed under or to rot. Then we have children having to access food from a food bank because they don't have enough.

I really can't speak to the economics of whether grocery stores are doing that on purpose to create profit. That's not really my level of expertise. What I do know is that there's a surplus of food that's available and going to waste. We need to consider how we can get that food back into the system in a way that is specifically designed to help the people who are most in need. If we do the right things and in 20 years we've significantly reduced food insecurity, that need won't change. We'll still be looking at how we can reclaim that food and get it to the people who can use it. Maybe they can pay at that point. That's fine, as long as we're not wasting the resources we create. There's no reason to create resources and then waste them. That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Chair, how are we doing for time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You're still good. You have about a minute and a half.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Next, this is not so much to say that it's being done in that very intentional way that we saw in Bolivia, or that my teacher was talking about, but I think for me it raises this question: What is the role of government and the public sector to try to set up a system that reclaims food waste and makes it available for folks, when we know that the people who are doing it for profit want to sell those really beautiful tomatoes at a high price in order to make a margin and might be concerned that, over time, if the ugly tomatoes are out there and people are buying them at a cheaper price, people won't be coming into their grocery stores to buy those better-looking and more expensive tomatoes?

What role does the public sector have to play in establishing that secondary market instead of leaving it to those who benefit from the primary market?

[Alex Boyd]

That's a wonderful question, Mr. Chair.

I think we can learn from other governments that are progressive in the world. France would be a good example in terms of what they've said: You can't throw out food, because it doesn't look good. They've kind of removed that as an option. I think I read that Brussels recently passed a law saying that grocers cannot throw food away. They have to find an avenue for food that's not waste.

Certainly there is no smooth and easy answer to say, “Hey, this is how we can immediately start to reclaim that food.” That is why, in my recommendations, I've advocated investing in the existing network. We've built a food bank network, which I'm part of, over the last 40 years. It has capacity. It has intelligent people. It has innovation in mind. If we can equip them to utilize those things, then they will apply it to the problems they see in their local community.

With what we're seeing in Fredericton, food waste is a big part of what we're working on. We see it as a need for New Brunswick. That may not be the same in your riding. It may be very different. If they can apply for funding to help them to meet the needs they are seeing locally, then we'll start to fill the gaps. After we fill the gaps, then we'll start to spread out. The gaps will get smaller and smaller the more we fill them. It will become Swiss cheese with smaller and smaller holes until the whole block is full, but we can't start where we are, because right now there are more gaps, and there's nothing to paste to.

We really need to look at how we can make legislation to make it harder for people to waste food. We also have to create the capacity so that the wasted food has somewhere to go. Otherwise, what happens?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

We will now move to our second round of questions, members and witnesses.

MP Stewart, you have five minutes, please.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being here today.

One thing I picked up in the last little piece was the part about the grocery stores. I think one of the downfalls we've had from government is that when you subsidize very wealthy grocery store chains and give them the money to buy brand new freezers and refrigeration when they have record profits, it's a terrible decision on behalf of the government. It does nothing for food pricing. We have seen 6.9% food inflation as of August, and it was 9% before then.

I'm sure at the food bank end of it, Mr. Boyd, where you work, you must have seen a total influx in the last couple of years. I'm wondering if you could just touch on the demographics you are seeing and on how that has evolved over the past maybe two or three years.

[Alex Boyd]

Thank you for that question.

The reality is that the demographic is switching. We see in our general scheme that we're now up to over one-fifth who are full-time employees. They've done everything fairly well: They've secured employment, they're working hard to feed their families and they're still not making it.

For food banks especially, it's a double whammy, because the demand is increasing, but our food prices aren't the same as they were two years ago. The can of soup that we could get with our relationship and was 49¢ two years ago is 99¢ today. Not only do we have a demand challenge for food banks; we also have a price increase in providing that. When milk goes up by 5¢ a litre, everyone goes, “Oh man, 5¢ a litre—that's awful.” Well, we buy at least 4,000 litres every month and sometimes more. That demand increase has a big impact.

The number of children we're serving is slightly up—32% to 33%. As we see more working families, we're probably going to expect that to continue to rise, because working families often have children at home, and they're struggling. We're also seeing an increase in our number of seniors, of people who are living on a retirement fixed income and are finding that the resources do not stretch as far as they used to stretch, which is very difficult, obviously, for someone who has worked their whole life, had a good career and is in retirement. They're not really needing to go back to work, but they're feeling that they're having a hard time stretching things. We are seeing demographic changes, and we'll probably continue to see that as long as the inflation levels stay as high as they are, because it's just a challenge to deal with.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I appreciate that response, Mr. Boyd. With inflation, I think the government has been inflating the prices, which basically takes the goods we need and puts up the cost of them.

I want to tell you a story I heard from the leader of our party not long ago. It's from a place called Manotick, which I believe is in his riding in the eastern part of Ontario. They're synonymous for tomatoes. I'm not an expert and I don't know if they're the baby tomatoes or what kind they are, but I know that it became.... This town has a company called SunTech. It's a very big company and it's one of the large industries in the area. With the cost of doing business, with all of the multiple carbon tax increases and the inflation over the last couple of years, it actually became cheaper for Manotick to truck or ship its tomatoes in from Mexico.

Here's a Canadian town and a Canadian company that has vast experience in growing tomatoes, which is very important, and because of the cost of doing business, it's cheaper to get them from Mexico. That is a sure sign of the carbon tax weakness and the inflated prices weakness of the last couple of years.

As you know, I represent Miramichi—Grand Lake, an extremely rural riding. It's a riding where the Internet mobility service is 25 years behind places like South Korea. Most of our industry was forestry. Most of it is gone. There are definitely some addictions and some mental health issues. There are people out on bail who should be in jail; we have a number of people like that, and it's a revolving door.

I'm just wondering.... With respect to Greener Village, you mentioned seniors. I wanted to drill down on that. I'm noticing in my constituency that the seniors are really struggling. In my riding, there are a lot of seniors; that's the largest population. I live in Blackville. It's a little English community. It's a kind of satellite for the city of Miramichi, I guess, these days, and I'm seeing senior citizens who are struggling worse than I've ever seen. They're making decisions.... They can't pay their hydro bills. They're buying very unhealthy food because of the cost of food. Can you elaborate on what you're seeing with the decisions that people are making based on food?

[Alex Boyd]

Thank you for that.

It's really hard to speak about it because it's challenging, but one story I will share because it's poignant. A senior citizen mentioned that they're halving their medications: “The choice was rent or the cost of the medication that I'm taking, so I'll just take half the dosage, and that way I can stretch that prescription twice as long.” I think we all know that's not how medicine works. You need to take the dosage that you're prescribed for it to have the effect that it's supposed to have.

For people who are in that position, this is an extremely difficult environment. If you're deciding to halve your medication, that means you are in a very difficult position financially. I think that to stay alive people across our country are making extremely difficult decisions, decisions that they shouldn't have to make in the country of Canada. With our bounty, with the blessings that we have in our environment and the ability to grow more food, it shouldn't be existing that way, but it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we're going to the Liberals. Go ahead, MP Atwin.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here.

It's very exciting to have a committee meeting in the city of Fredericton. It was just a short drive for me to get here this morning. I really appreciate my colleagues' coming and participating in such important conversations.

Alex, I know that you and I have had many a conversation as well. I'd love to use my time to just allow you to share more about the incredible things that Greener Village does and how we can help you do what you need to do to expand. I know that there have been several funding applications that I was so happy to support and do all I could for. However, they were unsuccessful.

Really, for me, with regard to pre-budget consultations, we need to build in something that helps food banks achieve those very innovative, incredible and creative goals that we're seeing. Could you just speak to, for example, how much your program supports newcomers in the Fredericton region and the extent of your innovative plan to support indigenous and rural committees? Just speak on that value-added piece and describe how an investment in food banks is really an investment in so many other spaces in our community.

[Alex Boyd]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Chair, the—

[A voice]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

There is a point of order.

MP Duncan, we're just going to suspend for a second because our interpretation services are down at this time.

Now we're back.

MP Atwin, you had just posed your question to Mr. Boyd, I believe it was.

[Alex Boyd]

How do you, in just a few short minutes, explain the scope of what organizations like Greener Village do?

Greener Village very much started as a food bank providing food services and cans of food and helping people who were in need. That was in 1983. We have actually made the evolutionary jump one time, and that's when we bought a new property in 2012. It's a 20-acre property. We have greenhouses and growing operations there where we teach people how to grow their own food. We have a class 5 learning kitchen with a Red Seal chef who's employed by our organization full time to teach people how to use their food effectively and how to make food that tastes good, that's economical and that's healthy. You can have all three, but you have to instill time and know-how to make that happen. It's not just automatic.

When we moved to our new facility, we turned our clothing bank, which use to be piles of clothes on tables that people could rummage through, into a thrift store where clients get gift cards. They are able to shop with a gift card, and the general public can shop. This helps us to generate revenue through social enterprise to help facilitate and support our organization.

We've made that leap from an old model to a new model. It was a lot of sleepless nights. It was a lot of worrying about how we were going to push it forward, how we were going to keep the funding going, how we were going to make all these things work. We did it largely alone. We didn't have significant government support to do that. We just did it.

Today we stand on the verge of another evolution for our organization. It's not that we will change and stop doing the things that we're currently doing and doing well; instead, we're adding something new, the food rescue that I mentioned several times. We're currently in the early stages of a significant fundraising campaign to raise money to build a food rescue centre. If there's a food donation of volume, that's very hard for small agencies to deal with. Imagine, if you will, a tractor-trailer load of carrots that comes in all at one time. There are only so many carrots that you can give to food bank clients before they say that they don't need a 50-pound bag of carrots. A tractor-trailer load of carrots would mean that you would have to give away a 50-pound bag to every client for about a week to move them out the door. That's problematic.

What we're saying is that we can create a centre that can receive those carrots, process them, steam them, freeze them and repackage them. Then we have a frozen product that can continue to work for us for six months, eight months or nine months. In that way, we're giving a two-pound bag of carrots to each family who visits for a very long time. Additionally, we can then feed the food bank network in New Brunswick, which has 65 agencies in it. We can back-feed those frozen carrots into the network so that those carrots don't just help Greener Village, our agency, and the 5,000 people that we support; they also support other agencies throughout the province.

The reality is that food banks want to do this. Because of our place within our communities, the people that we serve and the relationships that we build with our client base, we realize the needs that are in the community and how we can develop. The challenge becomes how to get the funding.

What I hear from funders repeatedly when I go to tell them about our project is this: “Where's government? What is government doing to support this? We think this is a wonderful idea, but have you had any commitments or conversations with the federal government? Have you had any conversations with the provincial government? Have you had any conversations with municipal government?”

At this stage, we've had conversations with everybody, everybody who would listen. The municipal government is the only one that has come forward with the actual support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thanks for that. You'll have more opportunity to expand.

Thank you, MP Atwin.

Now we're going to the Bloc and MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have a very informative panel.

Before I go on, Mr. Chair, can you tell me whether I do, indeed, have two and a half minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're very liberal with our time today.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Very good.

Mr. Black, I was quite interested in every aspect of your presentation. I hope to cover a number of them, but I'm going to start with the end.

You pointed to the need to streamline the funding application process for federal programs overall, given how much capacity it requires of small municipalities. It feels as though programs are becoming more complex so that fewer applications are successful.

Can you share some of the challenges you run into?

[Andrew Black]

Through the chair, thank you for the question.

I guess the housing accelerator fund was one of the most recent ones, and I've already spoken about that. It's restrictive because of the housing needs assessment, but the application itself is also hugely onerous. It is difficult to complete.

I've had this conversation. Again, through the FCM, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, we have advocacy days in Ottawa. Those are hugely successful. I met with a couple of MPs there. One of the conversations we had was around potentially two different funding streams, maybe with funding applications for smaller and rural communities and then a funding application for a city. You don't want to differentiate between sizes of municipalities—we're all municipalities and we all do the same work—but again, there's the question of that capacity level for smaller municipalities to be able to do funding.

We have a robust staff. We have a fair number of managers in our departments within Tantramar. They do good work. They do funding applications all the time, and some are easier than others, but there are municipalities within this province and, I would guess, in provinces across the country, where you have a CAO, a chief administrative officer, who maybe is also the clerk, and that's about it. Maybe some of that funding work falls onto municipally elected officials. Chances are that they don't know how to do funding applications.

Having greater access to applications and simplifying them would help municipalities greatly. The housing accelerator fund is the most recent example, though.