Finance Committee on Oct. 12th, 2023

[Norman Nahas, As an Individual]

Good morning. Thank you. Welcome to Halifax, all of you who don't reside here.

My name is Norman Nahas. I'm an engineer by profession. I'm involved in the food and beverage industry and also in the construction industry. As well, I head up the Lebanese Chamber of Commerce in Nova Scotia. It's quite interesting to be sitting beside Mr. Jack Beaton, who heads up the Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace association at the other end of the province.

As an association, we believe in entrepreneurialism and removing roadblocks to enable business to thrive, because that in itself will allow for employment and the additional tax base to help fund many of the great things that are being proposed here today and across the country.

When it comes down to development in Halifax, we have a housing crisis, which is similar to those across the country. We aren't immune to any of these things that are happening. We've been big advocates for removing roadblocks, enabling development to happen and supporting those who are willing to take the risk to build—especially in uncertain times, with interest rate creep and the lack of tradespeople, which is a big problem here. I know there's a big announcement coming in 11 minutes, which we're all looking forward to hearing, but we still need to continue to incentivize and promote entrepreneurialism and development. At the end of the day, that is the only way the housing issue is going to be taken care of, because I don't believe we can rely on government to take it upon itself to fix every issue that's in front of us, especially the housing one.

I was born and raised here. My father came to Pier 21 on a boat in 1967 and married a local lady, my mother. I'm the product of a Canadian and Lebanese put together. I'm a proud Canadian. I'm also proud of my heritage and lineage, but I believe we need to continue to promote an entrepreneurial spirit and enable that to thrive so that employment can get more in check and the other issues we need to fund will be helped along the way as well.

That's it for opening statements. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Nahas.

Now we'll go to the Nova Scotia Community College. We have its president, Donald Bureaux.

Please, go ahead.

[Donald Bureaux, President, Nova Scotia Community College]

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Chair, thank you. It's a true honour for me to be here this morning. As was mentioned, I have the privilege of being the president of the Nova Scotia Community College.

I want to begin by acknowledging that the Nova Scotia Community College is located in Mi’kma’ki, which is the unceded territory and traditional homeland of the Mi’kmaq Nation.

It's truly an honour, Mr. Chair, to be here this morning to present to you and your colleagues as you learn and as I learn more about the budget priorities for our federal government in 2024.

The mission of the Nova Scotia Community College is very succinct. We are here to build the economy and quality of life of Nova Scotia through education and innovation. In deeper terms, we are here to democratize post-secondary education. We do that by providing education that is accessible to individuals who, quite frankly, wish to transform their lives.

Every year, I have the honour of participating in numerous convocation ceremonies around the province. We have a unique model in Nova Scotia—a single-college system. Most provinces have multiple colleges. We have one, with 17 locations in the province.

In June, I travelled around the province and completed 22 ceremonies. I got to shake the hands of almost 4,100 people. During that short interaction on the stage, I had 12-second exit interviews with 4,100 people over a period of two weeks. In spite of what's happening in the world today, I'm always inspired by their enthusiasm, their appreciation and their hope for a different future.

In our college, over one-third of our students are the first people in their family ever to go to post-secondary education. Think about the changes that occur when a family has a family member who has successfully experienced the transformational powers I mentioned earlier of a post-secondary education and what it can do to change their lives. When we do graduate follow-up surveys, we're very pleased that 91% of our graduates are employed. Of those, 93% stay, working and living in the province of Nova Scotia.

I give you that stat because across Canada we have over 140 public colleges from coast to coast to coast. I think the stat now is that over 95% of Canadians live within a half an hour's drive of an access point to a Canadian college, institute or polytechnic. We believe that's becoming the true backbone of our country, by which communities are able to provide localized, just-in-time, rapid training for individuals to be ready for the economy of tomorrow.

Now, as a system of 140-plus colleges, we've benefited greatly over the years with strong partnerships with our federal government. Here in Nova Scotia, we've also done that. We've been very fortunate to have a federally funded marine training program focused on women, indigenous and Mi’kmaq learners. We have also been very active in the Irving Shipbuilding contract to modernize and build the new fleet for the Canadian Navy over a period of 30 years, and we have focused on under-represented individuals who have not seen themselves participating in large industrial projects in the past. We have had very successful cohorts from our African Nova Scotian community, indigenous community and women in trades programs.

I humbly ask this committee to consider going forward the ability to maximize and leverage this incredible network we have in this country in order to continue to provide opportunities for Nova Scotians and all Canadians to get the skills they need and, quite frankly, a radically different economy from the one we had just three years ago.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Bureaux.

Now we'll hear from Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace and Mr. Jack Beaton.

[Jack Beaton, Education Lead, Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to be here.

I just want to point out that although I was introduced earlier as a school superintendent, I no longer am. I'm retired. I'm living an entirely different life now.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jack Beaton]

I don't want to get the two confused.

Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace was formed in 2015 in response to the refugee crisis caused by the Syrian civil war. The news was inundated with stories of refugees fleeing the destruction of their homes and their country. Canadians responded by forming community groups, raising money and sponsoring families.

A small group of people from Antigonish got together and committed to raising enough money, finding a house, finding furniture and providing transportation so that a refugee family could get a start in Canada. The appeal went out to the Antigonish community and money was raised. In fact, enough money was raised to sponsor two families. This led to additional sponsorships. As of 2023 SAFE has sponsored and settled more than 20 Syrian families—over 100 people in a community of 5,000—totally by volunteer efforts.

I want to point out that we are a registered society, totally run by volunteers. We don't own anything. We even borrow paperclips. Everything that happens, happens through volunteers.

SAFE became a sponsorship agreement holder with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in 2018. This allowed SAFE to identify which refugees it would sponsor, an essential part of family reunification. When our first wave of families came in, of course, they all left people behind and had a strong interest in bringing those people along. You need to have the ability to identify those folks in order to bring them in.

It also allowed SAFE to work as a liaison between IRCC and other community groups. There are three or four other community groups in the Antigonish area that are involved with bringing in refugees. We've had people coming in from Afghanistan, Somalia, Iran, the Democratic Republic of Congo and some other places that I'm missing. There is a wide variety of people coming in.

Almost eight years after the start of SAFE, more than 30 refugee families from various parts of the world have arrived in Antigonish—sponsored, helped, mentored and counselled by the good people of the community. On arrival, each became a permanent resident of the country. Many of them have now moved on to gain citizenship.

I should also mention that about 12 babies—I've lost count—have been born in those families since the families arrived. One of the characteristics of rural Nova Scotia, particularly in the part of the world where I live, is that the demographics have shown us that we are getting older and that we need people in the workforce. As a former school superintendent, I'm very, very conscious of the declining enrolment in our schools and the effect of that. Just from the Syrian families alone, there are about 20 additional kids in the school system. That has obviously made a big difference.

It's not in my notes, but I also want to mention Ukrainian settlement. Because of the expertise built in the community, another probably 15 to 20 Ukrainian families have arrived in the community and have accessed volunteer help. That's a story for another day. I don't want to get into the details of that, because there are some particular challenges for that group. Antigonish has become a bit of a target community for them.

There are some major challenges to what we're trying to do here. I'm sure it's common in other parts of the country, particularly in rural parts of the country. Of course, you need to have the money in the bank to provide support for the family for a year. That money should cover start-up costs and a monthly allocation that lasts for the first 12 months. However, this amount of money is tied to whatever the income assistance rates are for the province.

In Nova Scotia, income assistance rates are dismal. Families are still eligible for the Canada child benefit, which has been a saviour. Still, a family of two adults and two children is living on about $33,000 a year, which is well below the poverty level.

According to the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, 33.1% of children in immigrant families that arrived in Nova Scotia between 2016 and 2020 are living in poverty. The national rate for this group is 21%. Also, 15.9% of children in non-immigrant families in Nova Scotia lived in poverty during this period, with the national rate being 10.7%. When we look specifically at various racialized groups in Nova Scotia, we find that 55% of Arab children in Nova Scotia, compared to 26.3% of Arab children in all of Canada, are from low-income families. I think the reason for that is that a lot of those children came in since 2016 and are in refugee families that are being settled, going back to the rates we just talked about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Beaton, for your hard work, your advocacy and your retirement.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We thank you for that.

There will be a lot of opportunities for the witnesses to answer many of the questions from the members, and that's what we're going to do right now. We're going to move into our first round of questions from the members.

Witnesses, just so you are aware, each party will have up to six minutes to ask questions in this first round.

We are starting with MP Perkins, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses. That's six minutes for questions and answers.

For the benefit of some of the members here who aren't from Nova Scotia.... I know all the witnesses will know this; they'll know the importance of the Lebanese community to our province.

My first question will be directed to Norm. Six minutes isn't enough time to talk about all the accomplishments of his family and the entrepreneurial businesses that he spoke about and about how the Lebanese community has changed our community for the better. You're seeing evidence of it outside of all these windows here, from residential to commercial development. They are a positive force.

I grew up here in Halifax, in a subdivision that was developed by the Butlers, an early Lebanese developer in Nova Scotia.

From the King of Donair on, I know your family has a lot of interests, but I'd particularly like to talk about the issue of residential housing development and the challenges that you see, not only as the Lebanese Chamber of Commerce but as an individual who has property developments. I know you and I have talked about that over the last years and about the difficulty of getting residential development done in any kind of a timely manner. Even though it's a private business, there's still a limit to how long you would take for your return on capital to get something developed.

Could you talk a bit about your experiences and the barriers that you find with the regional municipality in particular?

[Norman Nahas]

To digress a bit, you talked about the development that's happened in towns. I think we did a study back in 2016 with Halifax Partnership to see the impact of the Lebanese community in Halifax from the perspective of creating employment and a tax base. It determined at that point that 87% of the residential development was done by the community. It wasn't done to pat the community on the back, by any means, but to show that immigrants create jobs and are a benefit to the economy. I think there were 3.4 jobs created for every man, woman and child in the community.

This was the first study that was done along that.... At that point, there was a lot of negativity around immigration. “Immigrants are taking jobs” was the type of rhetoric going on, so we did that study and it was a testament to the community. It's also been a poster child for immigration. I've had many discussions with many immigration ministers on how we believe immigration should happen with a community base.

However, I'm sorry: I'll move on to your question about residential development and housing. It is a long process. Design is a long process. Good practices take time. It ultimately comes down to a lack of trades, a lack of skilled workers and a lack of professionals that we have here in town. I don't know where people are going. There are still universities.

To get out and to actually be able to practise and move things along, the process has been slower from a design point, but also from an approval perspective within the city. The cities try their best to try to hire additional people, but it seems that when they hire more people, there are additional roadblocks and departments that need to get involved. The process from conception to actually being able to put a shovel in the ground.... I'm looking at my project right there, out the window. It took about four years from concept to putting a shovel in the ground.

It's going on to about three and a half years now since it was started. Some of that is because of trades not being available, and everybody's spreading themselves thin because there is a big demand, as there should be, to check the housing box. Halifax doesn't have all the trades we need to be able to handle the demand. It's a chicken-and-egg type of scenario. I believe immigrants and refugees coming in, if they have the skill sets that we need, will help fill the void to enable the industry to move forward in the direction we need it to.

For example, even with heavy equipment operators, if there are only so many in a city who can dig holes, do blasting and even get ready to start the project.... Coming down to plumbers and electricians, there are only so many. Things can only move at such a pace.

The reality is that even though new approvals are coming through the federal and provincial governments to incentivize growth in housing, the crux is going to be logistically getting it done.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll have some questions for the president of the NSCC on that, maybe in my second round, because I have a bit of time left.

You told me a story about a piece of property you had in Halifax where you wanted to build 21 storeys, I believe, and it took five years for municipal approval. At the end of the day, they didn't approve the 21 storeys.

I wonder if you could share that.

[Norman Nahas]

Yes. It's a long story. It could be a chapter in the book on this.

The long and the short of it is that the biggest privately owned downtown parcel of land, sitting probably three or four blocks that way, bringing east and west...both 20-some storeys. A willing developer—that being me—wanted to build something similar and house a couple of thousand people in there, and the city put a limit on it of four storeys.

There's been a back-and-forth battle going on for over a decade now. It's unfortunate, but a site like that is not going to be developed because of, I guess, short-sightedness on height restrictions and allowances.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Perkins.

Members, in two rounds, you'll get an opportunity to expand.

Now we'll go to MP Blois for six minutes.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for taking the time. It's great to have the finance committee here in Nova Scotia.

I'm going to start with Nourish Nova Scotia. I have only six minutes, so I'm going to move quickly.

You mentioned there's about $200 million being spent at the provincial level right now on food and school programs. Would you have a gold standard at the provincial level? Which province is doing it best?

I know Prince Edward Island is a good model in the maritime provinces, but just quickly, who's doing it best across the country right now?

[Lindsay Corbin]

That's a great question.

The Coalition for Healthy School Food was certainly very pleased to see what P.E.I. has done with the resources it has. We're also very excited to see what is happening now in British Columbia. There is historic investment—I believe it's $240 million—in that province.

It is too soon to tell, but I'll let you follow up.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

If you could go away and take a look at that, perhaps that's something you could provide in a submission to this committee, to see which province is doing it best. I take the point on what you're pushing for. I represent Kings—Hants. We are the breadbasket or the food basket of Nova Scotia, if you will. Having talked to my constituents, I know there's a lot of passion in the valley for driving what you guys are talking about. I think it's really important.

We are in a context right now in which, let's be honest, we're in a challenging period with fiscal finances. What about the $200 million a year that you were talking about? That would represent about $6 million to Nova Scotia by national proportion. Have you had conversations with Minister Druhan? Let's say it was $6 million a year that the federal government could provide to supplement what's happening. Do you think that would be at least a good starting point?

[Lindsay Corbin]

I haven't had a conversation with Minister Druhan about that, but based on what I know about the current investment in Nova Scotia, $1.7 million is our typical investment. There was an additional $2.5 million in emergency funding that came in last year, which was very helpful. Certainly, if we were to increase that by $5 million or $6 million in Nova Scotia, that would triple what we have.

I'll let Lisa expand on that.

[Lisa Roberts]

Just to answer really briefly, what we're seeing on the ground right now is that schools facing a lot of demand for food access at school know they're already over budget at the end of September. With regard to a lot of the budget that ends up being made available for school food from the province, many of those funds are actually supposed to be wellness funds. They're not specifically school food funds, so effectively, other things are not happening because funds are being diverted to school food.

A federal investment specifically for school food would make a huge difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Blois [Inaudible—Editor]

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm not going to touch the mike. Don't worry, Mr. Chair. I'm used to being in Ottawa.

I've got to keep moving here—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're going to stay away from the mike button.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You'll give me those 15 seconds back.