Finance Committee on Nov. 13th, 2023

[Véronique Proulx]

Federal programs are generally more complex. It's always more complicated for an SME to file an application for a federal aid program than for a Quebec aid program, for example. There are more red tape, more bureaucracy, more requirements and less flexibility. That's the case for both tax measures and programs.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In your statement, you mentioned the various measures that you would like to see put in place. Are there any other specific measures that the federal government should introduce to support growth in the manufacturing sector?

[Véronique Proulx]

There are actually a lot of them in the brief, but the ones I presented are really the main export and investment ones.

Perhaps one thing could be done for the SMEs with regard to decarbonization. Large businesses have adopted a carbon neutrality objective, and you can expect that they'll pass it on down their supply chain, but many SMEs aren't linked in to global supply chains. I'm thinking of the ones that manufacture furniture or kitchen and bathroom cabinets, for example. Those SMEs don't necessarily care about carbon neutrality. We therefore propose that the federal government raise awareness and conduct more audits and diagnostics to measure its footprint and that it establish targeted programs for SMEs to mitigate the risks associated with the investments that have to be made.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

Now I'd like to go to Mr. Milliard, from the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec.

Your first recommendation both surprised me and made me smile. You're talking about a return to balanced budgets and even about adopting legislation that would require budgets to stay balanced.

Would you please explain why that's your first recommendation?

[Charles Milliard]

When we request a number of fiscal or economic support measures for small, medium-sized and large businesses, it's also important to have enviable public finances.

However, I would remind you that we're in a relatively enviable position compared to many OECD countries. Canada isn't in as critical a situation as other countries, but any deterioration in that position can be a concern. Returning to a balanced budget must be a healthy obsession for any government. I would cite the economic update of Mr. Girard in Quebec City as an example.

The important thing is to have a horizon. You may then have a number of issues that prevent you from getting there, but that vision has to look beyond action.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In a more political context, for us, when we talk about that, people tell us we're going to cut everything and shut down public services.

What do you think is the benefit of having a balanced budget in the medium and long terms? Are there any positive repercussions for citizens?

[Charles Milliard]

I'll leave it to you to engage in politics. People here do that very well.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's a technical question that I am asking you on this subject.

[Charles Milliard]

Whatever the case may be, Canada's credit rating is either a virtuous or a vicious circle. It has an impact on international borrowing costs, the kind of people who want to do business with us internationally and the quality of our free trade agreements. It affects entrepreneurs in their regions, but it ultimately has an impact on the entire macroeconomic picture. So we think it's important.

We acknowledge that the federal government was very much present during the pandemic, and I'm one of those people who most often say so. I think it saved the day in many respects for many economic sectors. However, we can't have an economy that's living on a respirator. We all need to go back to our roles in the economy. That means a balanced budget, as well as businesses that take risks, spend their money and make profits.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Paul‑Hus.

We'll now go to MP Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here this morning.

I'm going to continue with you, Mr. Milliard. I'm sure you're aware that Canada has nevertheless retained its AAA rating. We always said during the pandemic that the federal government had borrowed money so that Canadians and ultimately the SMEs wouldn't have to borrow more.

You touched on some very interesting topics in that connection, and I'm taking note of your recommendations. However, I didn't hear you discuss the repayment of the $60,000 loans and loan forgiveness of up to $20,000. Would you please tell me about that?

[Mathieu Lavigne, Director, Public and Economic Affairs, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec]

You're referring to the Canada emergency business account. We're requesting that repayment of that loan be delayed for at least a year. Our colleagues at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and other economic associations have also made that request.

It's important for us that this extension be granted in the present inflationary situation that is already putting enormous pressure on businesses. We are of course aware that all businesses must repay their loans, but doing so appears to be particularly difficult for many of them, which would have been in a relatively sound position had it not been for the present situation.

The current circumstances are the reason why we're requesting that repayment the delayed. We think it would be wise to delay it by a year.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Actually, according to the initial agreement, businesses have until 2026 to repay their loans, but, in that case, they would forfeit the loan forgiveness of $20,000.

Businesses may negotiate an agreement with their bank, which would allow them to receive that refundable portion. I say that as a former commercial banker. They nevertheless have to show they have exercised due diligence. That's the way it is in the business world: when you borrow money, you have to repay it one day or another. Otherwise a business simply has no capital.

[Mathieu Lavigne]

That's actually why we aren't requesting an indefinite extension but rather a one-year extension as a result of the current circumstances. We would not have requested an extension had it not been for the inflationary context.

As Ms. Proulx also said, these circumstances have put pressure on businesses' wages, inputs, debt service and so on. Businesses are therefore in a particularly weakened position right now by circumstances beyond their control, in addition to the fact that they're now being asked to repay this loan without enjoying the loan forgiveness of $20,000. That definitely weakens businesses that otherwise wouldn't necessarily be in trouble. So we think there's a way to grant them an additional extension.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

At the same time, the federal government is being asked to be prudent and return to a balanced budget. That's natural. I think there's a way to do both: be understanding and exercise tighter financial management where necessary.

I see Mr. Milliard would like to make a comment. Then I'd like to hear Ms. Proulx's opinion.

[Charles Milliard]

Yes, I'm aware of what you say about our request and a balanced budget. Earlier I said I wouldn't get political. However, since we are the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec, the chambers of commerce tell us about problems and issues concerning Quebec's entrepreneurs. I've been in my present position for three and a half years, and I have to say I have never received so many calls from chambers of commerce urging us to request publicly that repayment be delayed. That's because this undermines the entrepreneurial fabric of the main streets and centres of many Quebec towns. So we're acting somewhat as their representative as well. Incidentally, we will be holding our general meeting the day after tomorrow, and I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot of discussion on this subject.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Ms. Proulx, would you like to comment on the subject or raise other points?

[Véronique Proulx]

I support the request to delay repayment for a year. Fewer of our business members are concerned, but this is nevertheless very hard for some of them. I think Mr. Lavigne emphasized the point that the current inflationary situation has made this delay necessary.

I have been in my position at the Manufacturiers et Exportateurs du Québec for six years, and this is the first time that people, wherever I go, have discussed this uncertainty and this concern about the present situation and the future.

So I think this would be a way for the federal government to provide better support to the small businesses affected.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'd like to discuss immigration if I have a little time left.

Ms. Proulx, would you please tell me very briefly what you'd like the federal government to do to improve the situation, particularly in its work with the Province of Quebec?

[Véronique Proulx]

It should shorten processing times and provide greater predictability for employers bringing in temporary foreign workers. For example, an employer might have a big contract requiring many employees over a period of two years and have to start production on January 1, but the workers might not arrive until six months later. There's no predictability or information.

That's the rub. Processing times need to be shortened and communication improved so manufacturers can do their job with the workers they need.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

All right.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 10 seconds if you want to make a quick comment.

[Charles Milliard]

It's a dream, but we do expect better cooperation on immigration between Quebec City and Ottawa. Ministers often speak to each other through the media, and that causes problems for people who've chosen Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.

Now we'll go to MP Desbiens, please, for six minutes.