Finance Committee on Nov. 15th, 2023

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

What do you need to regain your momentum and get back to where you were pre-pandemic? Is it a question of time, or do you need a bigger team or a bigger budget?

[Edouard Lamontagne]

Obviously, we can talk about the budget.

Since I'm not part of the management team, I'm not privy to our organization's budget documents. However, I do know that the funding we receive has not increased since our director general, Josée Théberge, was appointed, and that was 10 years ago. There was an increase during the pandemic thanks to certain funds, but there are rumours that those extra funds will be cut in the next budget. That worries us, because strengthening culture is a long-term effort. There is a constant need, as there is in a number of sectors, to provide opportunities for people to go out. People almost have to relearn how to go out and spend time together.

To go back to your question, yes, thanks to our budget, we are able to provide more of those opportunities. If the budget is cut, we will obviously have to rethink our way of doing things.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Aside from the pandemic funding, I am quite surprised to hear that your budget has not increased in 10 years. Has it at least been indexed to inflation?

[Edouard Lamontagne]

Based on my conversations with our general director, the answer is no. We have been receiving the same basic amount for 10 years. Obviously, it is worrisome to know that we are eligible to receive that amount only, with no increase in sight.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

With annual inflation—which has been running high these past few years—this means that the same funding allows you to offer fewer services. That is a real concern.

I was under the impression that the new Official Languages Act allowed for a significant increase in support for organizations such as yours. Through the committee, we will follow up to ensure that your organization is fully recognized.

Is it possible to live in French in rural areas of Manitoba, whether that be everywhere or in certain areas?

[Edouard Lamontagne]

It's easier in some places.

The Division scolaire franco-manitobaine is one of our major partners. Schools in the regions enable people to live in their language.

Obviously, we have to be able to access culture outside of educational institutions. I'm not downplaying the importance of what the division does, but schools can't do everything. That's why we have cultural committees. These committees provide opportunities for neighbours to get together, to share an experience and to share their culture.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That's very interesting, thank you.

Canada is a country with a lot of immigration. It is important to have francophone immigration to at least maintain the demographic weight of francophones.

Is that the situation in Manitoba? Are French-speaking newcomers able to keep their language and use it in their daily lives? Do they take part in the events you organize?

[Edouard Lamontagne]

Yes, and the key word is “inclusion”.

I feel like you are people who talk a lot about the economy, but we also have to think about those who immigrate to Manitoba and who travel to the regions for their jobs. These people also need to experience their culture in their community. We give them the opportunity to have experiences in their community, which means that people don't have to travel all the way to Winnipeg to spend their money.

These opportunities are extremely important. We invite people to participate in cultural events.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

As with Marty, it's great to be here in your hometown, Daniel.

You have six minutes to ask all your local constituents some questions.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking all of our witnesses.

I'm pleased to be here in Winnipeg to do this work.

Mr. Brandon, I want to start with you.

When we were in Prince Edward Island, we heard testimony from a basic income coalition about a demonstration project that they've been preparing there. They would like to see federal funding for that project. I know you mentioned a guaranteed livable basic income in your own opening remarks. I wonder if you could just take a quick minute to talk a little bit about guaranteed livable basic income from a Manitoba perspective and whether Make Poverty History Manitoba recommends that the federal government help fund a demonstration project on Prince Edward Island.

[Josh Brandon]

Absolutely, the project in Prince Edward Island is very encouraging.

Here in Manitoba, we have a long history with the concept of basic income. Back in the 1970s, you'll remember that Manitoba was home to the Mincome project. That project demonstrated that we can implement a basic income on a community-wide level. There was a test study in Dauphin, Manitoba, in the 1970s. The results of it were clear: It not only helped lift many Manitobans out of poverty, but it had positive impacts on education and health. The amount of workforce reduction was very limited. In fact, the areas where we did see a reduction of people participating in the workforce were simply the areas of young people going back to school, improving their education, and some parents staying home more with young children—a positive aspect of that.

Here in Manitoba, there's much more we could do. We do need federal support for that to be implemented on a broad level here. It's something we would encourage here in Manitoba also.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you for that.

I just want to drill down into one of the details you mentioned. When we talk about workforce participation during that Mincome study, it was one of the findings that most people actually didn't leave the workforce. New mothers spent more time at home with their young babies. I think the other demographic group specifically was teenage boys between the ages of 15 and 18, who were more likely to stay in school and finish their high school education than to leave school prematurely and join the workforce.

We've heard a bit about the workforce challenges that employers are experiencing. What would ensuring that families have an adequate income mean in terms of young people finishing their education and being in a financial position to go and be trained for the workforce, as opposed to having to leave and take low-paying jobs to help support their families pay rent? Could you speak a little bit to that?

[Josh Brandon]

The system that we have here in Manitoba is essentially a punitive system of social assistance. It prevents people from accessing the education they need and the tools they need to succeed. If you think about somebody who is getting a job off social assistance for the first time, they face a 70% clawback on the earned income. That's not encouraging people to get into the labour force. We need to have a more equitable system that provides a strong transition out of poverty for people.

If I may, there were a couple questions about the carbon tax and how that's impacting people. I just wanted to address that. We talked to lots of our members who received the climate action incentive payment. They are using that to pay for a winter coat that they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford or to pay down a heating bill so that they can keep their heat on in the winter.

I just want to say that's also on our radar, as well as the issues around competition, because MP Dzerowicz was talking about that. That's again an issue. People in poverty are facing higher grocery bills, because we have such concentrations in our grocery market. The CRTC, a few years ago, approved the amalgamation of telecommunication operations here in Manitoba. Low-income people who need a phone to get a job, to get health care appointments, face higher phone bills. We need to see relief in that area as well.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Barletta, in the meantime, as P.E.I. works on a demonstration project and as other things happen in the GLBI space, you talked about the Canada disability benefit. We know people living with disabilities are disproportionately represented in low-income groups.

I wonder whether you could speak again about the importance of getting that benefit. The legislation has passed. We're waiting on cabinet, now, to set up the program. How important is it that they act quickly?

[Vince Barletta]

Looking at the client base of food banks in Manitoba, we need to see that benefit moved forward in a way that is acceptable for those who need it and that takes people above that market basket measure of poverty. The gap for a single person in Manitoba between EIA disability and the market basket measure is $945. That's the gap we're talking about.

Do not allow the clawback. I know a lot of people are concerned about the clawback, whether it's by private insurers or provincial governments. That is a critical issue. Forty per cent of people who use the food bank in Manitoba are people with disabilities. It's much the same all across the country. As I said, Mr. Blaikie, acquiring a disability in your lifetime or being born with one is a sentence to a lifetime of poverty. We're seeing that for hundreds of thousands of Canadians.

This is something we would urge the government to take action on in this budget.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

Members and witnesses, we're getting into our second round of questions. The times are a little different in this round.

We're starting with MP Lawrence for five minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to focus my questions on Mr. Strain and Mr. Davidson.

Do you know how much carbon tax is paid in Guangdong province?

It's a completely unfair question. It's zero.

[Bramwell Strain]

I'm one of those Canadians living with a disability. I have a hearing issue. I'm sorry. I didn't understand.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I apologize.

To Mr. Strain and Mr. Davidson, what is the level of carbon tax in Guangdong province, Mumbai and West Virginia?

[Chuck Davidson]

I have no idea.

[Bramwell Strain]

Anecdotally, I heard we are 2% of.... What they do in two hours, we do in a year.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

The challenge we have is that your members are competing from Winnipeg all around the world—that's probably fair—and we have a carbon tax pricing situation here. We are already among the lowest with respect to productivity. We have some of the worst income tax framework. We have some of the highest regulatory barriers, and now we're putting the carbon tax on top of that. This government, unbelievably, is looking to quadruple that carbon tax. In addition to the direct cost, it's also leading to inflation. Tiff Macklem, of course, said that a third of above-target inflation is directly attributable to the carbon tax.

Don't you believe it's necessary for competitiveness and our economy to scrap the tax?

That's for Mr. Strain and Mr. Davidson.

[Bramwell Strain]

The important thing about the carbon tax is, obviously, to balance environmental issues.

I clearly understand what you're saying about the level playing field. We need a level playing field. That said, it's not a race to the bottom in terms of who can emit the most, so—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'm going to jump in here for one second.

I picked these three areas in the world for a reason. In Guangdong province, they use coal. In West Virginia, they use coal. In Mumbai, they use coal. This means that what happens is that when we put carbon tax on our clean energy—nuclear or, in many cases, natural gas, which is a lot cleaner—we're forcing our industry into being like Mumbai or Guangdong province and using coal. We are hurting the environment, sir. We are hurting the environment with the carbon tax. It's moving industry from Winnipeg to Guangdong province.

[Bramwell Strain]

I clearly understand where you're going with your question.

My point is that, in provinces like Manitoba and Quebec, we have hydroelectricity with the cleanest inputs possible. What we're looking for on the carbon tax is for those who must emit carbon, i.e., farmers. When you use it for your heating, etc., you must do that, versus those who have the ability to lessen greenhouse gas.

We also believe we should be incentivized to use that hydroelectricity. Manufacturing here comes across as green, right away. Saskatchewan, Alberta and some other provinces, when they moved from coal to natural gas, got all sorts of credit, whereas we are already the 97% student looking to bridge that 3%. What we're looking for there is a 3% playing field. The issue in Manitoba is that we will be on the ESG side and able to attract business here because of that greening. That is where the money should be going.