Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

From there, I just wanted to talk a little bit about.... My colleague asked about the first home savings program. In my opinion, he didn't get a satisfactory answer from the minister.

We've heard that 300,000 accounts were started. How many have had deposits? What are the average amounts and total amounts of deposits?

[Chris Forbes]

Thanks for the question.

What I said to Mr. Blaikie was that I don't have those numbers with me. Just to be clear, I'm not totally sure what data we have at what level and how current it is. We will endeavour to get back to you with the data we have and to share that with you.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Perfect.

We'll switch gears again.

With respect to the charter that has been announced, I think it's almost a misnomer. To be clear, it says in there that banks should waive fees and lengthen amortization, but if I go into RBC tomorrow and I say, “Hey, I have this charter and I need my amortization extended”, what do you think their response to me is going to be?

[Grahame Johnson]

I would assume you're not a homeowner at risk, but if you went into RBC and said, “Look, I'm unemployed. I'm about to lose my house. I can't pay my mortgage”, the banks are not interested in repossessing your house.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That's true.

[Grahame Johnson]

They will work with you. I think that gives you a list of possible options that the bank could present to you while you work your way through this.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

But they're under no legal obligation. I don't think there's any additional legal obligation here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

Now we go to MP Thompson. Go ahead, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Welcome to the witnesses. It's a pleasure to have you here today.

To my colleague's question, I think it's important to note that when Mr. Poilievre was minister of housing, I believe there was $300 million for 99 units.

I think it's incredibly important that we move forward to build a significant number of units and to address the very real challenges for many Canadians. Certainly in my riding we're seeing a need for multiple types of housing. To me, focusing on affordable rental housing is a really important step forward.

I can start with you, Mr. Forbes, but certainly either of the witnesses can answer.

I'd like to begin with the Canada mortgage bonds. It certainly seems that we have taken the amount from $40 billion to $60 billion. What I'm really pleased about is the support for builders. I have heard from the construction association in my riding how grateful they are for this support and how it is linked to their being able to build multi-unit projects, including seniors' residences and student housing, and to expand support across a very complex housing need.

Could you speak to that policy? What do you hope to see in terms of units?

[Grahame Johnson]

Thank you for the question, MP Thompson.

The Canada mortgage bonds program is a very important one in particular for the construction of purpose-built, multi-unit residential units.

One of the biggest challenges in building new units is the cost of financing and interest. For borrowers to finance these projects, it's appreciably cheaper, in the order of 100 to 200 basis points—so 1% to 2%—to borrow using government-guaranteed funds and government-insured funds by going through and getting multi-unit mortgage insurance from CMHC.

The lending institutions know they can fund their mortgages by securitising them and selling them to the Canada Housing Trust, which in turn sells Canada mortgage bonds to investors all over the world.

At $40 billion, the program was very successful, but it was supply-constrained. There was more demand for this funding than there was supply. The $60 billion opens up another $20 billion. It's CMHC math; I'll say it's their number. It would help finance 30,000 of the new units each year.

This essentially opens up the ability of mortgage lenders to provide more ensured financing to builders and to provide a break in terms of the financing cost, and it really helps them get these projects off the ground. This is bringing private capital into the market as well. These bonds are sold into the market globally.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

On the suite of supports, I want to reference the affordable housing fund and the apartment construction loan program that I believe is coming out in 2024. Can you speak to that and to what you hope to see come through that program?

[Alison McDermott]

These are existing programs that have been providing support for affordable housing and housing in general for a few years now. We have top-ups to both programs. We have a $15 billion top-up to the apartment construction loan program. That should allow an additional 30,000 units, bringing the total to over 100,000, as the minister pointed out.

There's also a billion dollars of additional investments into the affordable housing fund, which used to be the co-investment fund. That is expected to support an additional 7,000 or so new units. That should be on top of the existing fund of $13 billion, which was slated to deliver over 60,000 units. Those are new units in addition to the repairs of 240,000 units. Basically what we're talking about is additional funding to support additional housing being built.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Thompson.

Next we have MP Ste-Marie for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The government had announced that it was going to pay $1 billion to the Breakfast Club. Since that announcement, we have not seen the money. I was sure that payment of the money would be announced in the fall economic statement. I looked for it in Bill C‑59, but I will admit that it is complicated and I did not find it.

Can the department tell me? Is the billion scheduled for sometime soon, or is it a forgotten promise?

[Chris Forbes]

I cannot speak for the government. However, I can tell you that decisions will be made when the federal budget is being prepared, in 2024. The measures that have not been announced up to now could still be part of the budget. I am not answering yes or no, but...

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Right, thank you. In fact, it was an election promise made by the Liberal Party that we are still waiting to see come to fruition.

I asked the minister a question about this earlier. I think Bill C‑59 contains a lot of things relating to housing that seem to me to be similar to those we find in Bill C‑356 introduced by the Conservative Party leader. Could you tell us today, or else in writing, what similar items there are in the two bills?

[Chris Forbes]

We have not done that kind of comparison between the two, if that is your question. I suppose that...

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

The item I am referring to, in particular, is the idea of telling municipalities that if they do not build enough housing, they will have their infrastructure and public transit transfers cut. It seems to me that I saw that when I read the fall economic statement.

[Chris Forbes]

Thank you for the question.

I think the minister mentioned that the approach with the provinces and municipalities is more collaborative than that. We are trying to work with them to make sure that local regulations provide incentives for building new housing. That is how the Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities works, and we are trying to work collaboratively with it.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Right, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Next we have MP Blaikie for two and a half minutes, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There has been a bit of talk about the spirit of Christmas around the table today. In that spirit, I'm happy to share my time with Mr. Morrice.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie.

For officials, I'd like to better understand what we need to do to address the financialization of housing. I have a concern that we didn't see enough in the fall economic statement when it comes to measures to address the way that homes in this country are increasingly being turned into commodities by large corporate investors and are seen less as homes for people to live in.

As I've shared with Mr. Forbes before, I've put forward a motion that would start to address this by removing some of these incentives for real estate investment trusts, for example, and directing those investments to build the affordable housing we need.

As a starting point, are you aware of any measures in the fall economic statement that would address the financialization of housing?

[Chris Forbes]

I'd go to the question of affordable housing more than the financialization. If there's a question about affordable housing, Ms. McDermott talked a bit about some of the measures to boost the supply of affordable housing that the government is supporting.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If I can clarify, I'd be happy to have any folks answer the question. My question is this: Are there any measures in the fall economic statement that would remove incentives that are currently in place that corporate real estate investors are benefiting from in order to turn homes in this country into commodities? An example I would share with you is the incentive currently in place that offers tax exemptions for real estate investment trusts.

Are you aware of any measures in the fall economic statement that would address the financialization of housing?