Evidence of meeting #134 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was premiers.
A video is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Merci, MP Ste-Marie.
Now we go to our final questioner, MP Davies. This will conclude, after that, our panel.
2 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you all for being here and for your excellent testimony.
Mayor Cleveland, you've commented on the state of housing in your community, and I take it the upshot is that affordable housing is in short supply in the community that you represent. Is that right?
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
Sorry, actually, no, that's not. In the last 12 to 14 months, we've seen the community of Cobourg grow its housing stock by 5.7%. We've actually seen the largest growth in Northumberland County of affordable housing in, I believe, the 25 years that it's been recorded in just the last 18 months.
Northumberland County is hitting above its weight. It's why I'm now here at this level of government, because we are doing everything we can do with the budgets we have. Northumberland County has a 2,000 square kilometre radius with only 80,000 residents in it, and those residents are demanding the same quality of services as our neighbours in Peterborough and Ottawa get, yet we don't have the tax base.
2 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I'm a little unclear about your jurisdiction. You're the mayor of Cobourg?
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
Yes, sir.
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
As the mayor of Cobourg, I'm elevated to the level of Northumberland County. Northumberland County is made up of seven mayors of surrounding towns.
2 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
It's a regional jurisdiction. In Cobourg itself, you say there's a plentiful supply of affordable housing?
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
Is there ever really enough affordable housing, sir?
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
No, sir. We are always in need of affordable housing.
2 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Would you say that red tape or bureaucracy in your municipality is the main barrier to building affordable housing?
2 p.m.
Lucas Claveland
No, sir, I would not say that. Actually, I would say that the main barrier to building affordable housing is the interrelationship between the different levels of government. I would say that there is too much empire building and not enough collaboration between these different levels of government.
As a local councillor with very little political experience, I humbly suggest that we've done a lot of great work in Cobourg by focusing on our lane and only on our lane and avoiding the work that belongs to the upper level of county.
When I see this level of government getting involved in housing, much needed, I ask myself, who thinks that adding government to industry is going to fix the problem?
2 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Well, maybe you don't, but lots of people do. It may not be the experience.... I come from Vancouver, which is very different and a far cry from Cobourg. I tell you, there's a big lack of affordable housing in Vancouver and we do need federal support there.
I'll turn my attention now to the psychotherapy association. It's good to see you again.
In your May 2022 written submission to the Standing Committee on Health, the Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association wrote the following:
The profession of counselling therapy/psychotherapy meets the threshold for tax exemption in the Excise Tax Act because it is regulated in five provinces. However, because the profession does not regulate the same title in all five provinces, the Department of Finance does not accept that counselling therapists and psychotherapists are the same profession and meet the minimum threshold of regulation in five provinces.
I'm trying to understand what we're doing in Bill C-59. Am I correct that this bill would correct that problem and then eliminate the GST/HST in all provinces, whether they're regulated the same way or not? Do I have that correct?
April 9th, 2024 / 2 p.m.
Lindsey Thomson Registered Psychotherapist and Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association
Thank you, Mr. Davies. I appreciate that. It's good to see you as well.
That is part of the issue, absolutely. For our piece—the current private member's bill, Bill C-323, which is leading into Bill C-59—what we're looking at is a tax exemption for counselling and psychotherapy services. I could chat your ear off for an hour about a more systemic look at ensuring that the two different professions are seen as one and the same and not dealt with separately. For example, the CRA recently released proposed amendments. It had one document for counselling therapy and a separate document for psychotherapy, which indicates to us that there's still some work for us to do in terms of bridging that gap of knowledge across all levels of the public and the government as well.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Can you tell us, if you know, which provinces currently regulate the profession of counselling therapy and psychotherapy?
2:05 p.m.
President-Elect and Registered Counselling Therapist, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association
Currently Nova Scotia does, as well as New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Quebec and Ontario.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
What about the types of counselling therapies? Will all types of counselling therapy services be GST/HST exempt under this provision, according to your understanding?
2:05 p.m.
Registered Psychotherapist and Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association
Yes, that's the aim. We're looking at inclusion. Regardless of which title we're using, we want to be inclusive of all professionals who practise the act of counselling therapy and psychotherapy, whether that's in a regulated or an unregulated province. It is actually a very big piece of work the CCPA does, with the Canadian certified counsellor designation as a placeholder, until those other provinces seek regulation. The CCPA has a very active role in the individual provinces that are still on their way.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Humanize this for us. This bill passes. GST/HST is taken off counselling and psychotherapy services. What is the impact that has in the real world on the people you see?
2:05 p.m.
President-Elect and Registered Counselling Therapist, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association
Just sitting here, we're talking about food security. A lot of times it might not seem like a lot, but that extra $15, $20 or $30 that GST puts on services might actually lead to somebody making a decision to deprioritize their mental health so they can feed their family. For a lot of people, even if you have third party coverage, ordinarily you have to pay up front and then be reimbursed by whatever your service is. This removes that huge number up front which, for a lot of people, is a huge barrier.
Mental health usually suffers because other things are of priority for most Canadians, so it is very exciting for us to remove that so that just going to seek services for physical and mental health—anything—is equal right across.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
You have time for one more question, if you'd like, and then that will conclude this panel.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I'll get a quick one in, then, about capacity.
We heard there's a shortage of mental health professionals. Do we have sufficient counselling therapists and psychotherapists to meet the current unmet needs for mental health services across Canada?
2:05 p.m.
President-Elect and Registered Counselling Therapist, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association
Currently we don't, and this is even with the way things are right now. With the barriers that are making things even more difficult, we're in danger of getting further and further.... The CCPA stands ready with, like I said, almost 15,000 members, who could make a significant dent...and increase access for all Canadians. Of course, that would mean a healthy country for all of us.