Evidence of meeting #138 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Brown  Realtor, As an Individual
Aaron Burry  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Dental Association
Maxime Dorais  Co-Director general, Union des consommateurs
Olivier Surprenant  Public Policy and Health Analyst, Union des consommateurs
Jennifer Quaid  Associate Professor and Vice-Dean Research, Civil Law Section, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Matthew Boswell  Commissioner of Competition, Competition Bureau Canada
Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau Canada
Nicolas Baron  Vice-President, Association of acers producers of Québec
Joan Rush  Vice-President and Advocacy Committee Chair, Canadian Society for Disability and Oral Health
Daniel Dufort  President and Chief Executive Officer, Montreal Economic Institute
Renaud Brossard  Vice-President, Communications, Montreal Economic Institute
Patrice Plouffe  Treasurer, Association of acers producers of Québec
Vincent Lambert  Secretary General, Association of acers producers of Québec

10:55 a.m.

Co-Director general, Union des consommateurs

Maxime Dorais

Generally speaking, the federal budget was well received by the Union des consommateurs, especially because it announced or implemented a number of social measures. Naturally, pharmacare and dental care are of great interest to us, as are the various measures on housing, specifically affordable housing. Obviously, those measures were extremely well received by the Union des consommateurs.

10:55 a.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Since you mentioned housing, I'm going to tell you what we think. Given that the federal government has to negotiate with Quebec, particularly so it can fully implement its programs, it's causing delays that drive up costs and postpone housing construction. The Bloc Québécois proposes, instead, that the government transfers funding to Quebec, because municipalities are actually the ones in charge of zoning and permits. Ultimately, the housing is there, in those cities, on their streets.

The Quebec government has programs, and so does the federal government. After launching Canada's national housing strategy in 2017, the federal government had to negotiate with the Quebec government for three years before a single housing unit could be built, meaning before the money was transferred. For its part, the housing accelerator fund was announced three years ago, but it took two years of negotiations before the federal government and Quebec reached a $1.8 billion agreement.

Don't you think it would be faster if the federal government showed a little humility and put its fiscal capacity forward by sending a one-time payment to the Quebec government? Wouldn't that accelerate housing construction, which would benefit all those struggling right now to find a place to live?

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We are over time, so you can submit the answer in writing, if you'd like, to the committee. We appreciate that.

We go to MP Boulerice for the last three minutes, please.

11 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Burry, as New Democrats, we're proud we insisted that dental care be accessible to a greater percentage of the population. I imagine you agree that we need to take care of people. Furthermore, we've always pushed the Liberal government to ensure that oral health professionals are paid fairly and equitably.

You know better than me that negotiations are still under way on the federal fee schedule for the new dental care program. Compared to the amounts offered by the provinces and the fees your association members bill their patients, I'm hearing that reimbursements would average 82%, 85% or 88% of the amounts billed by your members. In your opinion, what would be an ideal and acceptable average reimbursement amount under the new federal program to cover the bills of members of your association?

11 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Dental Association

Dr. Aaron Burry

First of all, I'll start with the question. We're not in a negotiation. I don't know where that concept came from, but we're not negotiating with the government. We're providing advice to the government about how the program should be structured, what this should look like and so on.

When it comes to the generally accepted process within how dental care is covered, it's usually based on the provincial and territorial dental association fee guides. These have been developed for decades now across the country. They're a reference that the insurance industry uses in terms of payment and reimbursement.

With the CDCP, the government has elected to have different reimbursement rates that it has established by province, and there's not much consistency in that, in terms of the percentage of reimbursement and so on. It's very complex in terms of how that's defined.

What we've said from the beginning is that the most appropriate thing is for the government to reimburse the provincial and territorial fee schedules. It makes it relatively simple—everyone understands the system and how it works—rather than adding complexity.

11 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

The simple and elegant solution would be to look at what the provinces are doing and to ensure we're aligned. That way, everyone would be satisfied because those are well-established practices. We wouldn't need to worry about reinventing the wheel.

11 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Dental Association

Dr. Aaron Burry

It reduces a lot of complexity. It reduces the whole notion of patients having to pay different amounts for different services at different times. It makes it a lot clearer and more understandable in today's world.

It also covers the cost of care, which is one of the areas that we had indicated from the beginning was important. The government, in its program, needs to cover the cost of care for those people who are vulnerable.

11 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Dr. Burry.

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

At this time we want to thank our witnesses.

Thank you for your opening remarks, for your testimony and for your many answers.

If there were some questions from members that you're not able to answer at this time, you can submit them through the clerk, please, along with any other submissions you would like the committee to receive.

We thank you again for appearing on Bill C-59.

At this time we're going to suspend as we transition to our next panel.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We're back.

With us today we have the Competition Bureau Canada and the commissioner, Matthew Boswell.

Welcome, Commissioner.

Joining the commissioner is deputy commissioner, mergers and monopolistic practices branch, Jeanne Pratt; as well as the deputy commissioner, competition promotion branch, Anthony Durocher.

From the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer we have the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Yves Giroux.

Welcome.

Joining Monsieur Giroux is Diarra Sourang, who is the director of political analysis.

Welcome.

At this time we will start with the Competition Bureau Canada for a five-minute opening remarks statement.

11:10 a.m.

Matthew Boswell Commissioner of Competition, Competition Bureau Canada

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today.

My name is Matthew Boswell and I am the commissioner of the Competition Bureau. Joining me today are my colleagues Jeanne Pratt, senior deputy commissioner of the mergers and monopolistic practices branch, and Anthony Durocher, deputy commissioner of the competition promotion branch.

As part of your study into Bill C-59, we submitted a brief outlining a number of recommendations that we believe could strengthen this already important piece of legislation. During these opening remarks, I would like to focus on our two recommendations relating to merger review.

The first of our recommendations with respect to mergers is for Canada to adopt a rebuttable structural presumption system in our merger law.

The idea is quite straightforward. Mergers that significantly increase concentration in highly concentrated markets are more likely to harm competition. Beyond certain thresholds, there should be a presumption in the law that a merger is anti-competitive, and merging parties should then have an opportunity to rebut that presumption.

This is not a novel idea. The U.S. has taken this common-sense approach for over 60 years, backed by U.S. Supreme Court precedent. We recommend adopting the threshold set out in the U.S. "Merger Guidelines”. Those thresholds are supported by a large number of economists and legal scholars and are consistent with retrospective studies that look at the actual effects of mergers in concentrated industries. Harmonizing Canadian law with the U.S. merger guidelines would, of course, also increase predictability for businesses and improve co-operation in cross-border merger reviews.

This is the kind of definitive reform that's needed if we want to see a true course correction in the way that mergers are treated, and avoid further harmful consolidation in Canada.

The second recommendation I'd like to highlight is our recommendation to strengthen our ability to remedy anti-competitive mergers.

Merger review is our first line of defence for protecting competition. However, when we find that a merger is anti-competitive, the law does not require strong remedies. The Supreme Court held that the goal of a merger remedy is simply to mitigate the harm from a merger so that it is no longer substantial, and to do so in the least intrusive way. As a result, we sometimes end up with merger remedies that take a strong competitor in a market and replace it with a weaker one.

The U.S. accepts only merger remedies that fully maintain competition, reflecting, once again, a common-sense view that the public should not bear the cost of a risky remedy.

In the European Union, merger remedies have to eliminate the competition concerns entirely, and have to be comprehensive and effective from all points of view.

In the United Kingdom, the objective is to ensure that competition, following the remedy, is as effective as pre-merger competition.

There is, in my submission, no reason why it should be any different in this country.

Our brief provides model legislative text that would implement each of these recommendations.

In closing, allow me to reassure you, we are committed to transparent, principled and evidence-based enforcement of the act for the benefit of all Canadians. If Bill C-59 becomes law, with or without our proposed amendments, we will implement the changes responsibly and provide guidance to business and stakeholders on our approach.

I want to thank parliamentarians for their diligent efforts in modernizing Canada's competition law framework. A more competitive economy will benefit all Canadians—by offering more choice and greater affordability for consumers and businesses and by stimulating productivity throughout the economy.

Thank you very much. We look forward to your questions this morning.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Commissioner Boswell.

Now we hear from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Monsieur Yves Giroux.

11:15 a.m.

Yves Giroux Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen members of Parliament, thank you for inviting us to testify today.

We are pleased to be here to talk about Bill C‑59, An Act to implement certain provisions of the fall economic statement tabled in Parliament on November 21, 2023 and certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023.

Contrary to what you mentioned earlier, Mr. Chair, I am indeed accompanied today by Diarra Sourang, whom you correctly named, but to whom you attributed a title she does not have. She's director of economic analysis, not political analysis, a type of analysis we don't do in our office. I just wanted to be clear on that.

My mandate as Parliamentary Budget Officer, as defined by the Parliament of Canada Act, is to provide parliamentarians with independent, non-partisan analysis to help you fulfill your constitutional role of holding the government to account.

To this end, on December 7, 2023, my office published an analysis of the fall economic statement—published by the Department of Finance on November 21, 2023—and more recently, on March 5, 2024, we published an update of our economic and financial outlook. In the coming weeks, consistent with our practice, we will publish our detailed analysis of the government's most recent budget. These analyses are intended to provide parliamentarians with important information on key issues to inform your discussions on the country's economic and fiscal situation.

To leave more time for your questions, I will stop here. We are pleased to respond to any questions you may have regarding our fall economic statement and budget 2023 analysis, or other work carried out by my office.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Giroux.

That leaves us a fair bit of time for questions from members. We are starting our first round of six minutes for each party.

We start with MP Chambers for the first six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This afternoon's proceedings aren't televised, so you're the prime-time witnesses here this morning so everyone can watch at home. Welcome to the committee again.

Is this your first time at committee, Ms. Sourang?

11:15 a.m.

Diarra Sourang

Yes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Welcome.

April 18th, 2024 / 11:15 a.m.

Diarra Sourang

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

We'll get a name tag for her next time, hopefully.

Mr. Giroux, your office didn't look at all of Bill C-59, but at least one provision in it. I think that had to do with the psychotherapy GST or the changes to the excise tax. I'm not necessarily interested in that.

It was news to officials at the CRA that they would be responsible for auditing the labour provisions as part of the investment tax credits. Has your office looked at the number of people who might be required to perform the auditing required?

11:15 a.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

The number of individuals necessary for the CRA to administer specific tax measures is not something we have looked at. However, I have to say I'm a bit surprised to hear that CRA officials did not know that, because in my experience there is usually quite a bit of back and forth between the Department of Finance and the CRA on the administration of tax measures that are proposed for inclusion in the budget to ensure that, in fact, the CRA can indeed administer measures that are considered for inclusion in budgets or estimates.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Thank you.

I read some Senate committee testimony that led me to believe there was a little bit of surprise there.

Your office does some great work on looking at departmental spending plans and the people plan for government. My recollection is that every year, for at least the last four or five years, each departmental spending plan will show that in the next year the total number of full-time equivalents, FTEs, will drop, except that when that year finishes it turns out that isn't realized and the number actually goes up.

In the budget that was just presented two days ago, the government is banking on, because it's capturing the savings from a reduction in full-time equivalents.... Have you actually seen a reduction in full-time equivalents in the last five or six years from one year to the next?

11:20 a.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

No. I don't recall seeing any reduction in the overall number of full-time equivalents or employees in the federal public service as a whole. There might have been decreases in some specific areas or in some specific agencies or departments, but as a whole, the public service has increased consistently year after year.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

As parliamentarians, should we be concerned that a government or a department planned to have a smaller workforce at the end of the year but then never actually achieved it? What's the issue with the planning and the execution?

11:20 a.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

I think the planning is not reflecting subsequent measures that are introduced by governments. For example, the departmental plans that are usually prepared early in the fiscal year or in advance of the budget don't include measures that are in the budget, so there is a time lag between the preparation of the plans and the implementation of these plans.

For example, in the budget, there are substantial resources for some departments and agencies: notably CRA, to improve response time for call centres, to take just one example. This will presumably require FTEs. The CRA departmental plan or agency plan probably did not reflect that. They may table plans that suggest a decrease in the number of FTEs, but what ends up happening, once they are made aware of the budget and the implication for each department and agency, is that it gets reflected in reality, and that very often leads to a revision upwards to the number of employees.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Right, and with every piece of legislation that comes here, the question is always asked: How many people does it require to execute the legislation or the plan? The answer is, “Well, we don't really have that number and you'll have to ask Treasury Board.” Then you ask Treasury Board, and they say, “Well, we're not really sure.” Presumably, somebody knows, somewhere. Or is there actually nobody looking at a people plan for the government?