Finance Committee on May 31st, 2024

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Morantz.

MP Thompson, go ahead, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I believe that my colleague is before me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes, we have PS Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Gratton, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions with my limited time. I think I have about four minutes. Is that what you said?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have three to four minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I want to ask you about the indigenous loan guarantee program, because I think that this is going to make a significant contribution toward ensuring that first nations, who have often been kind of sidelined when it comes to natural resources and natural resource projects, specifically in the mining sector. They haven't been able to get access to competitively priced capital to participate in those projects in a meaningful way that achieves economic returns for their community members.

Can you speak to how the indigenous loan program included in budget 2024 will further encourage, enable and support that participation in the mining industry?

[Pierre Gratton]

In my time-limited remarks, I focused on two other issues, but certainly the indigenous loan guarantee program or fund is something that we strongly support and encourage the government to proceed with.

I would, though, like to challenge your preamble a little bit. Participation of indigenous peoples in the mining sector, including in business procurement, is extensive already. I could take the example of Voisey's Bay, where I think 90% of all procurement is with indigenous-owned businesses. It's huge in the territories, at 30% or 40%. There's a lot of participation in mining, but there could be more—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I have limited time, and I do have another question for you.

In terms of equity, ownership and shares in those projects, I'm sure that we can all agree that first nations haven't been able to participate to the same degree that they can participate now, with this indigenous loan program in place.

[Pierre Gratton]

That is true, and that is a welcome development.

I'd also emphasize what we like about the program. It's not just exclusively the opportunity to become part owners in mines but also all of the ancillary activities, whether it's a power line or a road. There's lots that goes into the building of a mine that they can have a direct stake in through this program, and that's a very positive development.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I want to ask you another question. It's a bit of an aside, but I'm contemplating how we can link programs like the initiative for responsible mining assurance. Are you aware of that program? It's an international one that looks to certify socially and environmentally responsible mining projects.

How many projects in Canada would qualify for the IRMA currently?

[Pierre Gratton]

Zero, because in Canada we have another program, called Towards Sustainable Mining, that was developed by our association. It's a condition of membership and is applied at all of our member mine sites in Canada and many around the world. It is the largest sustainability initiative in mining in terms of its application globally. We have 12 other countries in the world that are currently applying that standard.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay.

There are two investment tax credits in this bill that apply to the extractives industry mining projects in general. There's the clean tech manufacturing tax credit and there's the mineral exploration tax credit, the METC.

Both of those, I would assume, are welcome developments, notwithstanding some of your comments at the beginning about some design issues that you have with those perhaps being worked out. Do you see those tax credits as positive developments in budget 2024, enhancing not only mining exploration but also the development of new mining projects in Canada?

[Pierre Gratton]

The clean technology manufacturing tax credit is definitely a welcome development. It addresses a gap in the value chain that existed within the critical minerals strategy, so it certainly will help to support new mining development, and we applaud it. We do think it needs to go further in terms of what it applies to.

The METC has been around for 20-odd years. The government renewed it in March, but this year's budget, from what I can gather, actually inadvertently put a spike through it, and that needs to be fixed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. That is your time.

We'll now go to MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to comment on the portion of the bill that addresses the open banking system. What we're seeing yet again is Canada's finance department introducing a system that benefits Bay Street and its major banks at the expense of credit unions, caisses populaires, and all provincially-based financial institutions. Am I surprised? No. I've sat for too long on this committee to be surprised. Nonetheless, I find it unacceptable.

Mr. Brun, would recognizing the provincial frameworks provide equity and consistency for all consumers in Canada?

[Bernard Brun]

Yes it would. That's more or less part of the solution.

The minister appeared before your committee, and also in the Senate. I recall that there was considerable emphasis on having a consistent experience for all consumers. That brings us back to the fact that harmonization with the provincial frameworks is essential to avoid duplication and to provide a consistent experience for everyone.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

As you said, everyone has to be on the same starting line, but under the proposed framework, the major Bay Street banks have a long head start, with institutions like yours and the credit unions starting from farther back with their shoelaces untied. That's not even close to a consistent experience and reciprocity between the standards.

Are there any other points you'd like to bring to our attention?

[Bernard Brun]

Yes. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to explain in further detail.

As I mentioned earlier, open banking services and increased competitiveness are issues that have been around for years. It's important not to lose sight of this goal, which is to offer more services. That's why I've been talking at length about the importance of a solid foundation to ensure that financial institutions can all begin to expand at the same time.

We are now talking about consumer-driven banking, but we'll soon be talking about payment information and initiation. It's clear that services are going to be extended to the insurance sector. Having a solid base that enables institutions to develop is the only way to ensure success.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I don't think Mr. Sorbara can hear us, because his microphone is still on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Sorbara, could you check that your microphone is on mute?

You may continue for another question, MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was very surprised when I found out that the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada had been chosen to handle the framework. To my knowledge, it's not a very large organization, and its commissioner is there on an interim basis. Not only that, but the agency's activities mainly pertain to education.

Do you have concerns about this organization's regulatory capability? You mentioned that earlier. Does this agency have the required expertise to manage the risks involved in security, cybersecurity and data management?

[Bernard Brun]

That's an extremely important question, because what's at stake is the stability of the financial sector. We are limited in Canada; the fact that there might be slightly fewer players in banking contributes significantly to stability. Though the aim now is to open up the banking system, it shouldn't be done at the expense of the system's security and stability.

I have to admit that we too were very surprised by the choice of this agency. There's been talk of an open banking system or open financial services for years now. But no one has ever thought that these supervisory powers would be entrusted to a federal consumer agency that has never managed data and has no expertise in that area. It has told us that it would develop this expertise, but just imagine the complexity of the issue, the rigour required, and the attendant exposure to risks? We have serious doubts about this decision.

The major problem is that it sends out a peculiar signal given that consumer protection is, of course, an area of provincial jurisdiction.

So the problem we are facing is twofold: on the one hand expertise needs to be developed, and on the other, federal-provincial harmonization needs to be established in a consistent manner in order to get all the parties to buy in.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much for your testimony.

[Bernard Brun]

Thank you.