Finance Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 155 of the Standing Committee on Finance.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I'd like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 83.1 and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, September 26, 2024, the committee is resuming its study on the pre-budget consultation in advance of the 2025 budget.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses. With us here today, we have, from B'nai Brith Canada, the director of research and advocacy, Mr. Richard Robertson. From the Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators, we have Lalita Krishna, co-chair, and Sally Lee, executive director. From the Canadian Labour Congress, D.T. Cochrane, senior economist, is with us. As well, we have, from the Canadian Trucking Alliance, Geoffrey Wood, senior vice-president of policy. From the Climate Emergency Unit, Seth Klein, team lead, is joining us, as well as Bushra Asghar, youth climate corps organizer. From the Réseau FADOQ, we have Gisèle Tassé-Goodman, president, and Philippe Poirier-Monette, special adviser, government relations.

Each of the groups will have up to five minutes. I would like to ask the witnesses to deliver their opening remarks before we proceed to questions from the members.

We will be starting with Mr. Robertson from B'nai Brith, please, for five minutes.

[Richard Robertson, Director, Research and Advocacy, B’nai Brith Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm here on behalf of B'nai Brith Canada, which is Canada's most senior human rights organization and the voice of Canada's grassroots Jewish community. Our organization, which was established in 1875, is dedicated to eradicating anti-Semitism and hatred in all of its forms and championing the rights of the marginalized.

B'nai Brith's submission to this honourable committee comes at a time of immense uncertainty for Canada's Jewish community. Over the past year, Canadian Jewry have been left feeling progressively more vulnerable and marginalized. The present responses to the increasing hate and incitement have failed to stem the rising levels of anti-Semitism and growing number of threats facing Jewish Canadians.

The upcoming federal budget presents an ideal opportunity for the federal government to devote additional resources towards combatting this worsening predicament. The purpose of B'nai Brith's submission is to aid the committee in ensuring its final report contains recommendations that can be utilized by the federal government to ensure the well-being, security and continued vitality of Canada's Jewish communities from coast to coast.

Our first recommendation is that the Government of Canada review all federal grant programs to ensure that only projects that align with Canada's anti-racism strategy, which was recently renewed for another four years, receive federal funding. Such a recommendation is required to ensure that federal funds are granted to projects that align with Canada's anti-racism strategy.

Our second recommendation is that the Government of Canada dedicate funding to develop a five-year program to enhance the nation's literacy in relation to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's working definition of anti-Semitism, particularly amongst Canadian secondary and post-secondary students.

This recommendation comes at a time when, in its audit of anti-Semitic incidents, my organization noted an over 109% rise in incidents of anti-Semitism from 2022 to 2024, and when, according to a recent Leger poll conducted this summer, “Canadians between the ages of 25 and 34 were most likely (31 per cent) to doubt the official death toll of the Holocaust, followed by 27 per cent for those between the ages of 18 and 24.”

The recommendation would complement the upcoming release of the special envoy's IHRA handbook. It would also ensure that young Canadians are aware of what constitutes contemporary anti-Semitism by educating them on the examples the IHRA has provided as a guide. Enhanced IHRA literacy would also help to combat the increasing levels of misinformation surrounding the Holocaust.

Our third recommendation is that the Government of Canada make new investments to support and strengthen Canada's ability to monitor and prevent terrorism. Funding should be provided to enhance the capacity and expand the capabilities of Canada's integrated national security enforcement teams, or INSETs.

This recommendation comes in the wake of multiple thwarted terror plots in or emanating from Canada that targeted Jewish persons. Jewish communities across the country are bearing the brunt of the alarming rise in radicalism, with their safety and well-being increasingly threatened by radicalized individuals and extremist rhetoric.

This is an issue that must be confronted proactively. Funding must be allocated to ensure the expanded capacity of INSETs to confront these threats.

Our final recommendation is that the Government of Canada provide funding to create a publicly accessible digital archive of all government records related to the Holocaust and then have Library and Archives Canada release them in a non-redacted and accessible format to the public.

The time to act is now. The situation for Jewish Canadians has become untenable. That is why B'nai Brith is asking the Standing Committee on Finance to take action by adopting these recommendations in its forthcoming report.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

Now we'll hear from the Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators. I believe Lalita Krishna will be delivering remarks.

[Lalita Krishna, Co-Chair, Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. We are grateful for this opportunity to discuss our pre-budget submission further.

My name is Lalita Krishna, and I am co-chair of the Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators, also known as BPOC. I'm here today alongside Sally Lee, CISF's executive director.

As Canada's only national production fund dedicated to supporting creators and producers from Black and people of colour communities, CISF's mandate is to support emerging, mid-level and established filmmakers in the development and production of their screen-based projects.

Support of the Canadian film and television industry is critical for our shared prosperity and success. It is an important driver of economic output and tax revenue for the Government of Canada as well as all of the provinces, territories and countless municipal governments. In 2022-23, the sector generated $12.19 billion in production volume, contributed $14.05 billion to the GDP and created over 239,000 jobs for Canadian creatives working in a wide range of roles.

Despite the substantial contribution that the creative industry makes to Canada's economy, opportunities are not equally distributed within the sector. Many BPOC producers and content creators struggle to secure adequate funding, which represents a missed opportunity for Canada. Black and racialized communities make up over 26% of the population. Talented filmmakers and artists from our communities have the potential to not only enrich our cultural landscape with their unique stories but to also drive further economic growth.

By investing in these sectors, Canada can tap into a wealth of untold narratives that would strengthen both its economy and its social fabric. A prime example is Nisha Pahuja’s To Kill a Tiger, which was nominated for an Oscar this year. It showcases the calibre of talent that exists and the global recognition it can achieve.

These stories deserve to be told. From Edmonton to Saint John, from Toronto to Quebec City, BPOC content creators are telling Canadian stories, but the opportunities to tell these stories are limited, as BPOC filmmakers are often shut out of legacy funds. Even established filmmakers like Nisha find it challenging to secure funding in our current system for their next project, despite their successes and the honour they have brought to our country.

[Sally Lee, Executive Director, Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators]

Thank you, Lalita.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, as you prepare your report in advance of budget 2025, we ask you to prioritize funding for the Canadian Independent Screen Fund for Black and People of Colour Creators. By allocating $20 million, the government can support important new and existing projects by Canadian creators.

Our fund is designed by and for Black and racialized creators. CISF supports content reflective of and relevant to Black and racialized communities while also targeting a global audience. Streamers like Netflix have shown that there is a strong appetite for content from regions such as Asia, Mexico, the Middle East and Nigeria, with audiences worldwide tuning in. With the right investment, Canadian creators can produce hit shows and series that not only thrive domestically but also succeed on this global stage.

The CISF has a strong history and legacy as an independent fund in Canada. The fund takes pride in its regional reach, prioritizing support for creators from across the country, ensuring that talent from all regions, including Quebec, is given the opportunity to thrive and contribute to the industry.

According to a series of recent reports, Hollywood forfeits nearly $30 billion annually due to racial inequity and its failure to fully capitalize on opportunities within Black, Asian and Latino markets. Canada, unfortunately, is not faring much better in this regard.

Our fund is designed to support filmmakers and content creators at every stage of their careers, whether emerging, mid-level or senior professionals, ensuring that talent across all experience levels has access to the resources they need to succeed.

We strongly urge you to seize this opportunity by providing stable funding for the CISF with $20 million per year over the next three years. This investment will not only lead to the creation of award-winning films and TV series but will also foster a new generation of talent, ensuring that our industry remains dynamic and globally competitive.

We thank you again for the opportunity to present today, and we welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We will have many questions, I'm sure, from the members.

Now we're going to hear from the Canadian Labour Congress and its senior economist, D.T. Cochrane, please.

[Dr. D.T. Cochrane, Senior Economist, Canadian Labour Congress]

My name is D.T. Cochrane. I'm the senior economist for the Canadian Labour Congress, which is Canada's largest central labour body, with over 50 national and international affiliate unions, representing three million working people.

Thank you for inviting me today.

Housing, health care, climate, inflation and jobs, these are just some of the issues making our lives more uncertain. The federal government can reduce that uncertainty by strengthening our social safety net as part of a comprehensive green industrial strategy.

During the pandemic, we collectively learned just how quickly our lives can be turned upside down. However, we also learned how prompt and substantial the federal response can be. As the pandemic shut down huge parts of the global economy, that response protected people's incomes, kept them employed and stabilized our industrial and financial systems. Although we got a glimpse of what the federal government can do, that glimpse also exposed the inadequacies of our safety net. Canada's inadequate safety net was on display as soaring prices created an affordability crisis and even more uncertainty. Median wages have finally recovered their purchasing power, but the recovery is uneven and undermined by rapidly rising unemployment.

Canada's labour market weakness is the result of inappropriate monetary policy and inadequate fiscal policy. Both failures are the result of policy-makers accepting the doctrine of economists preaching free markets and minimal government. Among the harmful consequences of this influence was the largely unchecked growth of corporate power, which is implicated in the affordability crisis. Recent high inflation was precipitated by supply chain disruptions, but it was propagated and amplified by dominant corporations using the pricing power they had gained over decades of economic mismanagement by governments espousing naive market ideals.

Market fundamentalists howl that the government has never delivered a truly free market economy. However, their utopia is incompatible with democracy, because markets require governance. That can be elite governance by dominant corporations and their owners, or it can be democratic governance by public institutions. Fair economies depend on democratic governments whether we like it or not. This fact and the uncertainty that we face is why the federal government should adopt an industrial strategy aimed at strengthening our social safety net.

One, invest in housing by building more affordable non-market options including co-operatives and subsidized units, which can be facilitated through the CMHC.

Two, invest in our public care institutions. They are the keystones of our safety net as well as being economically important. We need this budget to deliver and expand universal pharmacare. Tie health fund transfers to improvements in pay and work conditions for frontline health care workers. Increase the Canada disability benefit and introduce the overdue safe long-term care act with the funding needed to achieve its goals.

Three, invest in workers who are navigating the employment impacts of shifting technology and global demand. That means improvements to our EI system, including reinstatement of the 420-hour entrance requirement and greater support for workforce development, including restoration of the $625 million top-up to the provincial and territorial labour market transfer.

Four, invest in a just and sustainable future economy by developing a green industrial strategy to transform our production systems. We need direction, coordination and financing at a scale that only the federal government can provide. A properly coordinated industrial strategy can guide our responses to the entangled sources of uncertainty, making sure they move us toward shared goals. For example, large-scale investment in building sustainable housing supports development and innovation in net-zero manufacturing and construction. Workforce development can be oriented toward the needs of Canada's emerging and developing post-carbon economies. Care work is low-emission work.

The final piece is to tax the ultrawealthy. The public investments we need have high upfront costs. The money spent to mobilize and coordinate resources will flow to workers and suppliers, whose spending will further stimulate the economy. It will also trickle up and concentrate with the ultrawealthy because of their ownership and power. This unearned wealth should be returned to public control through a higher corporate tax rate, an excess profit tax, additional top tax brackets and a wealth tax.

We cannot eliminate the darkness of the future, but we can make it less threatening by ensuring everyone trusts that, if calamity befalls them or a loved one—whether it's illness, job loss, disability or business failure—our shared safety net will be there to catch them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Cochrane.

Now we go to the Canadian Trucking Alliance. Via video conference, we have Mr. Geoffrey Wood.

[Geoffrey Wood, Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Trucking Alliance]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us on the committee today.

My name is Geoff Wood. I'm the senior vice-president of policy for the Canadian Trucking Alliance. The Canadian Trucking Alliance is a federation of the provincial trucking associations. It represents over 5,000 member companies across Canada. These employ approximately 250,000 individuals dedicated to supporting the national and international trucking supply chains.

We are pleased to speak with you today and highlight three key items from our pre-budget submission—which we submitted earlier this year—that we felt would be of interest to the committee. These include addressing the misclassification of workers in our industry, dealing with the underground economy and tax evasion, expanding and making permanent the accelerated investment incentive, and addressing the carbon tax. We believe that, with this pre-budget, we have an opportunity to take a serious look at the state of the trucking business in this country and take steps to better support Canadian businesses, the economy and the trucking industry.

The CTA is looking to bring back a tax system and business environment that incentivize growth and ensure fair competition. I'd like to stress the fair competition piece, which I'll get to in a bit. We have a crisis on our hands. It's only getting worse, and we need the government's help.

Now I'll cover my three points.

The first addresses the misclassification of workers and deals with the underground economy and tax evasion. For over five years—I said, “over five years”, but it's actually much longer than that—the Canadian Trucking Alliance has been calling on the federal government to combat gross non-compliance in the trucking sector, which includes widespread labour abuse and tax evasion. However, for many years, those pleas went unanswered and the abuse grew exponentially.

In 2022, in reaction to industry calls, ESDC launched an enforcement pilot project to investigate industry concerns in Ontario. As expected, this enforcement pilot found gross non-compliance, with more than 60% of employers in contravention of labour laws. For context, we believe 60% represents a substantial non-compliance figure, one that ESDC has never seen before.

Likewise, the Canada Revenue Agency, at the request of industry, launched a similar study in 2023 on the use of personal services businesses, which are the instrument of choice for those participating in the underground economy and the trucking industry. Like ESDC, the CRA found widespread non-compliance and tax evasion. Additionally, the study confirmed that trucking is now the number one user of the PSB model in the entire economy.

In both cases, the federal government studied the misclassification issue known as “Driver Inc.” and has independently confirmed what industry has been saying for a long time: Canada's trucking industry will soon be lost to the underground economy if we do not act now. Non-compliance in these areas allows operators to significantly reduce their operating costs and distort market economics. It also strips workers of many of their rights, including overtime pay, vacation pay, paid sick days and workers' compensation. This is just plain wrong and we need to fix it.

To put the tax evasion in perspective, it's estimated to be in the billions of dollars annually. It's estimated that a third of the trucking industry is in the grips of the underground economy. This issue needs urgent attention, including the lifting of the T4A enforcement moratorium, a real enforcement strategy from the Canada Revenue Agency to deal with non-compliant PSBs, and more enforcement of Canada Labour Code's part III as it relates to trucking. From our perspective, we just want the law enforced. We aren't asking for anything other than the law to be enforced. Please help us.

With respect to the accelerated investment incentive, this was introduced in 2018. We like it. We'd like to see it expanded and made permanent. Specifically, we'd like to see first-year deductions of up to 80% on all trucks and trailers being acquired. This spurs investment in clean and newer technologies. On a more aggressive front, we'd like to see aggressive rates of up to 100% for natural gas, hydrogen fuel cells and electric trucks, in order to promote these alternative-fuel technologies. As I mentioned earlier, we would like to see this made permanent. It's a good thing. The trucking industry supports it. It incentivizes business.

With respect to the carbon tax, no wholly viable alternative currently exists, so the current tax serves no policy purpose in the trucking sector. Diesel is the primary fuel used to power long-haul trucks. The federal carbon tax is intended to encourage truck operators to switch to less carbon-intensive alternatives, which don't currently exist in the long-haul sector and won't for the foreseeable future. Therefore, this tax misses its intended purpose in trucking, as it cannot alter fuel-purchasing decisions and doesn't provide any benefit to the environment.

In 2024, carbon taxes will add just under $2 billion to annual trucking costs in Canada. By 2030, the carbon tax will add more than $4 billion. Over the 12-year phase-in, the total cost to the industry will be $26 billion. Due to razor-thin margins in the trucking industry, these added costs cannot be absorbed and must be passed on to consumers.

As virtually every good purchased by Canadian families and businesses involves truck transportation, this means those families and those businesses are paying increasingly higher prices for those goods.

Mr. Chair, thank you for your time.

This concludes my remarks, and I'm happy to take any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Wood. I'm sure there'll be many questions.

Now we'll hear from the Climate Emergency Unit, and I believe it is Seth Klein who will deliver remarks.

[Seth Klein, Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, honourable members.

Thank you so much for this invitation. We're delighted for this opportunity to share an exciting idea with you, which is a proposal for a new federal program: a youth climate corps.

I'm the team lead with the Climate Emergency Unit. I'm joined by my colleague Bushra Asghar, who is one of the lead organizers of the national campaign for the YCC.

I'm also the author of a book called A Good War: Mobilizing Canada for the Climate Emergency, a book that maps out how to confront the climate crisis and is structured around lessons from the Second World War. During the Second World War, Canada had a population of about 11 million people. Remarkably, over a million Canadians enlisted. It was a truly extraordinary mobilization. Of those, 64% were under the age of 21. These young people left their farms, delayed their careers and deferred their studies because they understood the emergency to be in that moment, and they heeded the call to serve.

Today, in the face of a new defining generational challenge, there are, once again, thousands of young people who understand the severity of what we confront. They again want to serve, to enlist in this generational challenge, but this time, so far anyway, they have yet to be issued an invitation to do so by their government. I'm going to pass the mic to Bushra to outline our vision for what a youth climate corps could look like.

[Bushra Asghar, Organizer, Youth Climate Corps, Climate Emergency Unit]

We're calling for the federal government to create a national paid job training program where anyone 35 and under could apply and sign up for two years to do climate adaptation and mitigation work in their communities: a youth climate corps. This would be a barrier-free, government-funded program to train youth for careers in the well-paying green jobs of the future. Our vision of the training is in three areas of employment.

Stream one is emergency preparedness and response work: wildfire fighting, flood responses and low-carbon care work involved in climate emergencies, such as checking on vulnerable community members during heat domes so that we don't lose our elders.

Stream two is jobs in strengthening our community and our environmental resilience to climate change: conservation positions, ecosystem restoration and shoring up community infrastructure and the like.

Stream three is training in jobs that we require immediately to drive our everyday greenhouse gas emissions down: retrofitting our homes and buildings, renewable energy projects and building out our public transit infrastructure.

Young people would, we hope, finish this two-year-long program with a certification like a Red Seal to set them on a path for a long-term career doing this vital work. Built into our vision is a focus on equity-deserving communities that have historically been left behind. This would be a program that turns no one away, federally funded but community-led.

[Seth Klein]

Polling that we have commissioned from Abacus Data shows strong public support for this YCC vision across the country. In short, this would be a very popular program with massive interest among young people.

Our call is for an initial federal investment in the YCC of $1 billion a year, which would then grow to accommodate demand. Ideally, the YCC would be cost-matched by provincial governments, and the deployment of young people would be done jointly with provincial, municipal and indigenous governments so that the projects and the training would align with regional and local climate action priorities that maximize greenhouse gas reductions. With a $1 billion-a-year investment and a commitment to pay the prevailing living wage of about $25 an hour, the YCC would create nearly 20,000 full-time jobs each year.

[Bushra Asghar]

In the wake of record world temperatures, escalating extreme climate-induced weather events and the recent launch of the American Climate Corps, this is a program whose time has come.

The youth climate corps would directly tackle the fight of our lives: the climate crisis. It would also address a number of other government priorities and crises that my generation is facing on the front lines: a national unemployment rate more than double the overall rate, affordability issues, housing, mental health, labour and skill shortages, equity and accessibility initiatives, and reconciliation with indigenous peoples.

My generation needs a youth climate corps because we are working multiple jobs and are still unable to pay our rents while living in an economy and in a country that are not prioritizing our future. This is the labour and climate solution young people direly need.

Thank you so much. We look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's great. Thank you, Ms. Asghar and Mr. Klein.

Now we'll go to Réseau FADOQ and its president, Gisèle Tassé-Goodman, for five-minute opening remarks.

[Gisèle Tassé-Goodman, President, Réseau FADOQ]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, my name is Gisèle Tassé‑Goodman, and I am the president of Réseau FADOQ. With me is Mr. Philippe Poirier‑Monette, special advisor on government relations.

I would like to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Finance for the invitation to participate in pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2025 budget.

Réseau FADOQ is a group of people aged 50 years and up, with over 580,000 members. Through our various initiatives, we seek to raise awareness among elected officials and members of civil society about seniors’ reality. The goal is to improve seniors’ quality of life.

Within the framework of the next federal budget, deploying efforts to improve the quality of life of a significant segment of the population will be important. It’s no surprise that, at the outset, we wish to emphasize a measure that Réseau FADOQ cares about, which is the 10% top-up to Old Age Security for people aged 75 years and up.

Increasing this benefit was and remains necessary. Nevertheless, people aged 65 to 74 years old have yet to understand why they are not entitled to the top-up. Currently, the annual income of a person under 75 years old who receives only the Old Age Security pension and the Guaranteed Income Supplement is less than $22,000. In this situation, a senior’s income does not even reach Canada’s official poverty line. This threshold is based on the market basket measure.

Keep in mind that this index sets out the cost of a basket of goods representing a basic standard of living. A person at this income level is still experiencing economic insecurity.

Since financial hardship is ageless, it is equally important for those aged 65 to 74 years old to access the 10% top-up of the Guaranteed Income Supplement.

Furthermore, it is necessary to include some measures left out of the previous budget and the most recent economic update.

During the 2021 election campaign, the government committed to increasing the Guaranteed Income Supplement by $500 a year for people aged 65 years and up living alone, and by $750 per year for couples. Three years later, seniors are still waiting.

Keep in mind that Guaranteed Income Supplement recipients are among the least fortunate in our society. Therefore, Réseau FADOQ hopes this promise will be kept.

In 2021, the government of Canada also committed to setting up a tax credit for experienced workers. In the context of a labour shortage, this measure would be welcome, since it encourages people to stay on the market or return to it. On that subject, we wish to highlight that the government of Quebec set up a similar tax measure and it led to compelling results.

If the government of Canada does not want to implement this measure, it could at least look into the possibility of increasing the employment income earnings exemption for Guaranteed Income Supplement recipients.

Over the last few years, the government of Canada increased the earnings exemption a few times. Each time, Réseau FADOQ welcomed the decision. This measure could reduce the impact of a tax trap discouraging Guaranteed Income Supplement recipients from staying on the labour market.

Another promise slow in being honoured since the last election campaign is broadening the Canada caregiver credit to make it a refundable tax-free benefit. Such a change would make the tax measure accessible to those less fortunate. It would also target more caregivers, whose involvement is essential.

I want to thank the members of the committee for listening to us.

We are now ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Tassé‑Goodman.

To all our witnesses, thank you for your opening remarks.

Now we're moving to members' questions. In the first round, each party will have up to six minutes to ask questions.

We are starting with MP Kelly for the first six minutes, please.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thanks.

To the trucking association, how much does the carbon tax cost your industry?

[Geoffrey Wood]

Thank you for the question.

Our estimates are that, at least in the 2024 year, it will add an additional $2 billion to the cost of trucking services. That's approximate. If I were to break it down for you on a per-truck basis, that's adding an additional $15,000 to $20,000 per year per truck in fuel costs.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. It's $15,000 to $20,000 per truck. That's the projection for this year, 2024.

[Geoffrey Wood]

That's correct.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. The government currently plans to increase this in the years to come.

[Geoffrey Wood]

That is correct. On the tax, the per-litre charge for the carbon tax increases, I'm not exactly sure on the schedule, but I think that by 2030 those costs will increase to approximately $4 billion annually.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Four billion—

[Geoffrey Wood]

It has an escalator in it. We projected that out to 2030.