Finance Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I want to extend a sincere thank you to you and your members for the work that you do and for putting, frankly, your lives and well-being on the line every single day to keep our communities safe. Thank you very much for the sacrifices of you and your members. We deeply appreciate your service to this country and to Toronto.

Recently, your police union put out a number of concerning statistics, notably a 45% increase in shootings and a 62% increase in gun-related homicides just in the last year alone in Toronto. Is that correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

Yes, that's correct.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

Recently, we've also learned that the Liberal government updated numbers showing that, currently, the government's plan to confiscate lawfully owned firearms from the illegal gun owner community is costing upwards of $75 million thus far, yet not a single firearm has been purchased from a lawful owner. In fact, no impact has been had, of course, on the criminals and on the illegal gun trade that's going on. Can you comment on what the Toronto Police Service would do with $75 million to combat gun violence?

[Clayton Campbell]

The $75 million would go a long way.

I do want to comment that in Toronto, we're seeing that 85% of the firearms that are seized—and we seized 600 this past year—are from the U.S.

We completely feel that the current gun ban and the buyback program have zero impact on crime in the city of Toronto and that it focuses on legal gun owners, not on the criminals committing offences.

Another thing that's so important is our bail reform. We are seeing repeat violent offenders, time and time again, firing illegal handguns in the streets of Toronto. It's absolutely ridiculous, and we've called upon the federal government, time and time again, to implement stricter bail for repeat violent offenders, and we're asking that again today.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

In your remarks a few weeks ago, criticizing the Liberal Prime Minister for taking a quite strange, I would say, victory lap on social media about their so-called handgun freeze, you were quite direct in your criticism of that. In fact, you said that it was “offensive to...police officers.” Frankly, we've seen a number of other police associations join you, from Surrey, B.C. to Hamilton, Ontario, so there seems to be a very widespread message coming loud and clear from police associations that the current tactics of course are not working to stop gun violence.

In fact, as you well know, gun violence, in general, across Canada over the last nine years of the Liberal government is up 116%, in addition to a general increase in violent crime of 50% in nine years. You're of course familiar that $75 million has been spent thus far, but the Liberal government's own estimates put the regime of confiscating from lawful firearms owners at $1.8 billion, and in fact, the Fraser Institute has estimated it would be well over $6 billion to institute the confiscation regime.

Can you outline for members of the finance committee what $6 billion or even just $2 billion would do for police services across Canada to combat violent crime in particular, and gun violence as well?

[Clayton Campbell]

That amount of money would be a game-changer for policing services across Canada. In Toronto, our budget is just over $1 billion with 8,000 members. That type of money could really impact our ability to provide adequate and effective policing, track down these violent criminals and keep them in custody. It would be absolutely a game-changer for policing across Canada.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you. As you've outlined, the vast majority of crime guns that you have seized are traced to the United States. Can you just outline again the impact that is having on the safety of Toronto?

[Clayton Campbell]

It's literally a daily occurrence. We have hundreds of shootings every day. A day doesn't go by that we don't have, unfortunately, a firearm offence in Toronto.

I go to community meetings all the time. Our citizens are scared. They're scared to go out in the street. We're seeing violent offences all the time, and the biggest problem, again, is that they are repeat offenders. We continually arrest these people, and they're back out on the streets, in a matter of days at times, committing offences again.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you for outlining that. We know that bail was made the default, in essence, by Bill C-75 a few years ago. It was a Liberal bill, and it's obviously having very far-reaching consequences in this country.

Just to conclude, Mr. Campbell, as you outlined, the majority of the crime guns are coming from the United States. I'm sure you would support more robust security measures at our border to stop those crime guns from coming into Toronto. Is that correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

Absolutely. When we have 85% of these illegal firearms seized coming from the United States, we completely support more resources at the border to prevent them from coming across and causing chaos in our city.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We will go now to MP Sorbara, please.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon and welcome to all the witnesses. Thank you for your individual testimony from your respective organizations.

First, to the Toronto Police Association, welcome, sir. I will say on the record that a sibling of mine is a 25-year veteran of a police force in Canada. I'm proud of his service. Our family is proud of his service. We always pray that he and all frontline officers who serve the public go home to their respective families.

My first question is for...Colin, correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

It's Clayton.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I'm sorry. Excuse me.

Clayton, who determines the police budget in terms of the approval of budgets, hiring and so forth on an annual basis?

[Clayton Campbell]

It's the police services board. It's made up of four appointees from the City of Toronto and three from the Province of Ontario.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

So the budget and the hiring of police officers are determined by the municipal government and the provincial government.

My understanding is that Toronto's police force has not kept up with the population in Toronto. Is that correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

That's absolutely correct. We're seeing that our numbers are less than they were in 2010, with a population increase of 20%.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I've often heard that you're maybe 700 police officers short. Is that an accurate number?

[Clayton Campbell]

Our chief of police at the last police services board meeting quoted 1,400, using a pop-to-cop ratio. It's a lot of officers.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Okay. We have to get that on the record. Funding coming from the province and the city determines the size of your police force. I have the privilege of representing York region. I know that they just had a police services board meeting and they approved a substantial increase in police officers.

Moving on to CBSA, we know that under the prior government, the number of full-time equivalents, or FTEs, for the Canada Border Services Agency—I'm going to get this on the record—went down from 14,833 in 2011-12 to 13,774 when we assumed office. So under the prior Conservative government, over one thousand CBSA officers, full-time equivalents, were let go or not rehired through attrition.

I want to get that on the record. We have invested substantial sums into the CBSA, while the Conservatives, like they would do...is cut. That is a factual number. You can look it up.

Secondly, Clayton, you mentioned bail. Please tell me who is responsible for the administration of the bail system in Ontario.

[Clayton Campbell]

Well, I think it's multi-level, but I think Bill C-75 has—

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Yes, Clayton, it's multi-level, but in your introductory remarks and in your comments to Ms. Dancho, you never mentioned that it was multi-level.

Bill C-48, the bail reform bill we passed, was passed unanimously by all parties. It was supported by all provinces. But in your testimony, you never mentioned that. You just said “federal government”. You never mentioned the province. You never mentioned that the JPs and the Crown prosecutors are appointed by the province. You never mentioned that the jails are run by the province. You never mentioned the reverse-onus provision. You never mentioned that jails are full.

You never mentioned that a gentleman was killed in a detention centre in the city of Toronto while awaiting trial. The conditions.... Judges have stated that they won't send individuals who should not be allowed to be out on bail to these detention centres run by the Province of Ontario.

You didn't mention any of that stuff. You threw it on our lap, when you know—

[Clayton Campbell]

I have to say—

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Please go ahead.