Evidence of meeting #20 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-8.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Taillon  Professor and Associate Director of the Centre for Constitutional and Administrative Law Studies , Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual
Mark Agnew  Senior Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
James Cohen  Executive Director, Transparency International Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by welcoming the witnesses, and thanking them for their participation and presentations.

My questions are for Mr. Taillon and have to do with the underused housing tax. As he pointed out, it may be a good idea if the purpose is to alter the behaviour of owners of properties that are vacant.

According to what the Minister of Finance said during the debate in the House, we are facing a housing and residential property shortage. There aren't enough houses and condos, so this is a way to make the housing supply more accessible to people. She said that the introduction of the underused housing tax would be one of many tools aimed at encouraging property owners not to leave dwellings vacant.

We discussed the measure with department officials at the last meeting. I know Ms. Dzerowicz and I pointed out that the purpose of the measure was to influence the behaviour of certain individuals. Foreign owners of underused residential units, condos and houses will be taxed, not to add to the government's coffers, but to influence those individuals' behaviour. Now, I'll turn to my question.

Mr. Taillon, if the point of the measure is not really to bring in tax revenue for the federal government, but to penalize a certain behaviour, do you think that will influence how judges interpret the law?

4:10 p.m.

Professor and Associate Director of the Centre for Constitutional and Administrative Law Studies , Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Patrick Taillon

Yes. Just because you call something a cat doesn't make it a cat, but the courts always have the last say. They will consider the purpose and true impact of the law. The government can make its intentions clear and say that, on the surface, it is fundamentally a tax. That may be true, but there is a risk.

Mr. Chair, in his question, the committee member pointed out the most important consideration. Insofar as the government is not really trying to generate tax revenue and the main objective is to influence behaviour, the measure is in fact a regulatory one that seeks to regulate or control behaviour, despite being in an act. It has to be tied to an area of jurisdiction, in this case, housing. However, housing is property, and property and civil law have always been the domain of the provinces under Canadian federalism. That fact is all the more important when you consider Canada's bijural tradition. In other words, civil law addresses private law matters in Quebec and common law applies in the rest of Canada, a tradition that is grounded in respect for provincial private law.

Obviously, the federal government has developed all kinds of tools to play a policy role in housing—I was going to say strategies, since it is called the national housing strategy, after all. When such actions are taken in a co‑operative way, so in co‑operation with the provinces, to help them assume their constitutional responsibilities, those actions can be approved by the courts. In that case, though, the action is subject to certain limits.

For example, when the federal government spends money on areas of provincial jurisdiction—not that I'm saying it's right—the courts tolerate it, provided that the spending doesn't reflect a desire to regulate or adopt legal standards to encourage or impose certain behaviours.

Therefore, it's a national housing strategy that is based on the federal government's authority to spend, which applies to aspects of housing that concern the federal government such as indigenous housing. That makes sense. Here, however, the government is going a step further. In an act, the government is trying to govern, regulate, control or encourage certain behaviours and discourage others. As long as the purpose is to discourage behaviours, not criminalize them—because the federal government has jurisdiction over criminal law—federal lawmakers cannot adopt such measures.

That gives rise to this idea of disguising it as a tax, and the courts may very well say that it is indeed a tax. I personally, don't think so, but maybe they will. If they do, the other problem I mentioned still exists, fiscal balance. This deals with the only form of taxation not administered by the federal government. That means some sort of mechanism needs to be put in place. It's clear to me, after reading the bill, that the federal agency responsible has to develop a certain number of tools for the delegation of authority to oversee and administer a property tax, which is something different from collecting sales tax, corporate profit tax or what have you.

Once the government has the mechanism to administer property tax, it will be hard to resist the urge to look for more and more good ideas to fill that space. Canadian history has taught us that. Inevitably, this would disadvantage the provinces, municipalities and school boards, which not only use the tax, but also sorely need it.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

That's quite clear.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

We are moving to the NDP.

Welcome, MP Ashton, to our committee. You have the floor for six minutes.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you very much.

My first question will be directed to the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

You've spoken publicly about the late filing of public accounts and the impact that has on Parliament being able to adequately evaluate government spending in a timely way.

Bill C-8 proposes over $2 billion in spending for COVID supports for the provinces. We in the NDP believe there should be timely reporting to Canadians on how that money is being spent, the equipment being purchased and how it's all being disbursed. This could be accomplished by tabling a quarterly report in the House of Commons.

What kind of information do you think would be helpful in such a report to help parliamentarians and Canadians understand how this money is being spent?

4:20 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

Thank you for the question.

That's a very interesting point. If there was a desire for parliamentarians to have more information on that type of spending by the federal government, at the very minimum, information such as how much was sent to which jurisdiction to buy which type of equipment would certainly be very helpful for you as legislators in determining whether this funding has been or will be used according to the initial intent of the funding. That would be helpful for you as a group.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

My next question is around the underused housing tax. Obviously, we've indicated that there are some major loopholes when it comes to this tax.

Isn't the real issue here the lack of affordable housing in our country? How important would it be to invest in social housing, affordable housing and housing on first nations to be able to address the housing shortage in our country?

I don't know if anyone from the PBO would like to answer.

4:20 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

I can attempt an answer.

We released a report this morning that indicates that for households earning an average income in most urban areas in the country, it's becoming more and more difficult to access housing at the average price. There are clearly imbalances in the housing market.

We have correlated that with the demographic needs of the country, which seem to have gone up since 2015 but have not been matched by an increase in supply. The increase in the population, based on natural increases as well as immigration, has not been followed by a commensurate increase in supply. This is leading to increases in prices that are far outpacing the growth in income and the easier affordability due to the lower interest rates we have seen over the last several years. This leads to difficulty in finding affordable housing for many households.

We also released a report several months ago about housing on first nations and multiple programs that have been implemented by the government over the last couple of years for providing affordable housing. We found that most of the funding has not significantly increased the number of affordable housing units, but rather has increased funding for housing units that are above affordable.

The definition of affordability has not been consistent or the definition the government has used has not been exactly what we would normally find to be affordable.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you very much.

Would any of the other witnesses like to comment briefly on that question?

With that, thank you to the PBO for your feedback.

Coming out of the work of the economic statement is the need to keep tabs on the kinds of financial supports that government put in place during the pandemic. I would like to put forward a notice of motion. I understand it is not committee business to debate the motion, but I would like to read it into the record:

That the committee invite the Minister of National Revenue to discuss wrongful abuses of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program from enterprises like airlines and private non for profit organizations like private ski resorts, golf clubs and others, which recorded record profits and increased revenues throughout the pandemic; to testify whether the beneficiaries of the CEWS devoted the government provided funds to workers pay and reports to this committee what government action was undertaken to ensure that funds were properly devoted to eligible recipients.

That is our motion. We've submitted a translation to the chair as well.

With that, I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony today.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Ashton.

We are moving to the second round, members. In the second round, we have the Conservatives up.

For five minutes, I have MP Stewart.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for that rousing applause from my colleagues here.

I do appreciate all of the witnesses appearing today. I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with the committee.

Bill C-8 is an important piece of legislation, which is obvious, but I do find it interesting.... My questions will be focused on Bill C-8 primarily and I'll try to stick to the bill as much as I can. It's interesting to me in a sense that we're meeting today discussing anything but the emergency measures act. I've been sitting here and I've been thinking this all week, and I'm not sure if it's relevant to the bill.

If it was truly national security, why was I permitted as a member of Parliament to walk seven or eight blocks through demonstrators every evening to get a cab? If my life was in danger, wouldn't I have armed guards with me or a bulletproof vest? Wouldn't they find a different way for me to get home at night?

I have four kids, and I'm going to be honest. I've walked through that demonstration for two weeks now, and I've never, ever felt threatened walking through it. If it actually is a national security issue, I think it's important that members of Parliament are not at all protected in that situation. I wanted to say that today.

The part of the legislation that I'm most drawn to is part 2, the underused housing tax act. As it pertains to my role as shadow minister for national revenue and pairing that with the latest report of inflation from Statistics Canada and the Parliamentary Budget Officer's reaffirmation that home prices are steadily climbing, I have a great deal of concern that this is simply a tax grab for the government that will mostly likely have zero impact on Canadians being closer to affording a new home. I also have concerns that other countries will impose the same tax on Canadians like snowbirds, who are already facing 30-year-high inflation.

My question is for Mr. Giroux.

I appreciate your being here today. How did you first come to the conclusion that this tax would generate $134 million while the government was suggesting it would generate $200 million? Obviously there's a 33% difference between the two, and I was just curious to see how you came up with your number and how it looks today.

4:25 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

Thank you for the question.

In very brief terms, we looked at the experience in British Columbia, which imposed such a tax. It was broadly similar and also subsequently increased, so we can have a pretty good idea of the behavioural impact of instituting the tax and then raising it subsequently.

Monsieur Perrault can probably give you a more complete answer as to how we came up with the estimate.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Sure. At this moment in time, was your estimate concluded to be more accurate than that of the government itself? They're just two different numbers. I just questioned if one was more right and more accurate than the other. It's just a general curiosity.

4:25 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

If you ask me, I will tell you that our estimate is better than the one by the Department of Finance.

4:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

I had a feeling you'd say that, but I didn't know for sure. I appreciate that.

Then again, here's another example of how this government doesn't understand what impact this will have on the financials for Canadians or their tax dollars.

Today's report from the PBO confirms what many Canadians already know first-hand, that the dream of home ownership or an affordable place to live is far out of reach and is worsening under the Trudeau government. Home prices continue to rise every month, and since the Prime Minister came to office, home prices in Canada have nearly doubled. That means that the same home that was $300,000 in 2015 is most likely priced at $600,000 today, and a half-million dollar home is now reaching a million dollars.

This failure to address skyrocketing home prices has reached crisis levels after a mere six years of government. Home prices in Canada are completely unaffordable for Canadians, and there is no end in sight. For Canadians in Hamilton, Toronto, Halifax and Ottawa, for instance, home prices are 50% above affordable levels. For Canadians in Vancouver, Montreal and Victoria, homes are up 45% above affordable levels.

The government has had six years to fix the issue. Instead, they have let it turn into an affordability crisis and continue to refer to it as simply a global phenomenon. Canadians who care about having an affordable place to call home or have hopes of one day owning their own home can't afford more of the Prime Minister's failed leadership on housing.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. That's your time.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

You're very welcome.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Now we're moving to MP Baker from the Liberals for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to start by directing my first question to Monsieur Giroux.

A number of the members have been alluding to the vacancy tax in Bill C-8. You were speaking about a report that I think I heard you say you issued this morning, but forgive me if I got the timing of that wrong. You were explaining to a colleague of mine why.... You had concluded in your report that housing prices were too high for many Canadians to afford to purchase a home—that's what I heard you say—and you quantified that.

You also spoke about why that is, why housing prices have grown so much. I'm wondering if you could explain that again and elaborate on it.

4:30 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

Thank you for your question.

We try to look at what could be driving the increases in house prices. One area people usually look to when looking at the demand for housing is household formation, so the demographic factor. Not only do people need somewhere to live, but they also need somewhere to live if there's.... As the population grows or people turn the age where they normally leave their parents' house, there's greater demand for housing. We also looked at the supply.

Looking at the increase in population, we found that there's an increase in population that's occurred. There's been a faster increase in population since 2015, but the building of new housing, be they apartments or houses, has not kept up with that pace in demographic pressure. That's very likely a determining factor in increasing house prices.

The other aspect is whether individuals and households have more money to spend on housing, and that is indeed the case. The incomes of Canadians have increased over the last several years. At the same time, interest rates have gone down. For a household looking at what they can afford, the interest rate is a big determining factor in deciding whether to go for a house of a certain price or not, because the monthly payments they can afford vary according to the interest rate.

We had a confluence of events—rising incomes, lower interest rates and demographic pressure that has not been matched by an increase in the supply—and that's what has led, in many areas of the country, to the increases in house prices.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you very much for that.

Monsieur Giroux, in Bill C-8, we see proposed funding, tax credits, etc., mechanisms to support a number of measures related to COVID, such as ventilation, for example, or rapid tests. In my mind, they're a scaling down of the kinds of supports that we saw over the past year and a half to two years.

Can you talk a little bit about where we were economically a year ago? Can you talk about where the supports were, let's say, about a year ago—let's say last fall—and then how that compares to what's proposed going forward?

4:35 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

That's an interesting question.

I hadn't looked at the exact numbers on the pace of government spending for example, a year ago or six months ago, compared to now, but there has been a net deceleration in government spending.

Not that anybody wants to, but if we go back to a year ago, the government was still providing supports for Canadians and businesses at a significantly higher level than what we are seeing now. With the successive waves and resilience of the Canadian economy, these supports have been withdrawn progressively, either because demand is not there or because some of these programs have expired. I would say, in a nutshell, that the levels of support have diminished certainly compared to a year ago.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Baker.

We're moving to the Bloc and MP Ste-Marie for two and a half minutes.