Finance Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2022

[Isabelle Jacques]

As I was mentioning, it was either, as you just mentioned, through the RCMP, or they could also use internal information using their software, their algorithm, to see whether there were any activities related to these blockades. However, we're not privy to what they found. They would vet the information. I'm sure if they had questions, they could have had maybe contact with the RCMP, and the decision was theirs to make if they wanted to freeze the account.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

When that happens, are people notified that a freezing of an account in their case is a consequence of the mandate under the Emergencies Act?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I don't know whether the financial institutions advise their clients. I'm not sure if anything was posted, but certainly I believe in the media it was clear that this was a potential impact should somebody want to finance illegal activities.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Certainly I do think it was publicly communicated in advance that this could happen, but I mean in the event it does happen, are people told that their account is frozen as a consequence of the emergency orders, or are they left to wonder?

What right do people have to know whether what's happening to them is a consequence of emergency orders or whether it's happening under some other kind of authority?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I do not know if any such notices were provided if somebody's account was suspended, whether because of the order or other reasons or other court orders. As we know, the Ontario superior court also issued an order to freeze accounts.

As to whether an individual would know why their account was frozen, I do not know if any notices were provided. I'm not—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay, so there's no obligation to provide such a notice, coming from the government or the emergency orders. If there were, it would be a result of the internal policy of the organization that froze the account or suspended the insurance.

[Isabelle Jacques]

That is accurate.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Is it possible for government to require financial institutions that have frozen accounts under these authorities to require those institutions to offer such a notice?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I presume it could be done legislatively. I might want to turn to my colleague Manuel.

I've not done that research. I don't know if there's any more specific answer that Manuel Dussault can provide in this regard.

[Manuel Dussault, Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thank you for your question.

As just an initial reaction, I agree it might be possible, but it's something we'd have to look at.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. I think the public interest value in that kind of policy would be that there does seem to be confusion about why some people's accounts are being frozen right now. There's the appearance that some folks feel that their accounts are being frozen as a result of the emergency orders. In some cases, that is not consistent with what we're hearing from government [Technical difficulty--Editor] If there were a requirement that when those accounts are frozen in consequence of the institutions fulfilling their obligations under the emergency orders, that would help people know, in a crystal-clear way, whether the emergency orders resulted in their account being frozen or whether it was something else.

Therefore, I do think that's something for us to consider at the committee and what I hope officials might consider taking back to government, because that's one relatively straightforward way we could provide a lot of clarity for Canadians who are wondering.

I am curious to know the smallest denomination of donation or contribution that has resulted in a freezing of an account so far.

[Isabelle Jacques]

I would not be able to provide that answer.

The information was strictly exchanged between law enforcement, the RCMP and the banks.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Would it be reasonable to expect the RCMP to know that?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Well, if the RCMP exchanged information with the bank, as you saw under section 5 of the order, there was a duty to disclose to the RCMP or CSIS.

I do not know if they have the details of the amounts. I was not privy to the information that was shared. I do not know the answer to that question.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

I'm looking to the chair to know how I'm doing for time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have just under one minute.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

We would be looking to the RCMP for information on how low the threshold is.

It seems to me that there are maybe two elements to the financial measures here. I'm interested in your input on this.

One clearly was that before the streets in Ottawa were cleared, it was meant to create a tool to put pressure on people to leave the occupied area and to go home.

Is that the only purpose of the financial measures? Is there also some follow-up around some of the organizers, groups and activities that may have been involved, in that they may represent a more ongoing threat to national security?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Give a short answer, please.

[Isabelle Jacques]

From my perspective, it was solely to ensure that people stopped funding illegal activities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

We are moving to our second round, members. In this round we're starting with the Conservatives.

I have MP Chambers up for five minutes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for their answers thus far.

I think my colleagues have asked some excellent questions with respect to process. I would like to continue to focus on process.

Can you provide the committee with a number for how many accounts and individuals have been frozen to date?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I can provide an aggregate. It would be over 206 accounts. I would not be able to tell you exactly how many entities.

It's possible that one person or one company had more than one account. I think it's over 206 or maybe 210.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

That also confirms the next question.

Could an individual have more than one account affected? It could be a savings account, a chequing account, a mortgage or additional products that a financial institution would provide.

[Isabelle Jacques]

That is accurate.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I've heard some discussion here today and also in the media about this notion that the bank or the financial institution makes a final determination as to whether an account is frozen. They liaise directly with the RCMP or some other source.

Is that correct?