Evidence of meeting #27 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.
We have the NDP up next.
MP Blaikie, you have two and a half minutes.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you.
We've talked about the RCMP passing names on to financial institutions for the purposes of freezing accounts. We've heard a bit about the process, such as it was, for people to have their account unfrozen.
In a case where somebody disputes that they were in the Ottawa area and therefore maintains that their account was improperly frozen according to the legislation.... We've heard that they may not even have gotten a notification that their account was frozen under the authority of the Emergencies Act. How do they go about pursuing a remedy or trying to establish in a court, for instance, that they weren't there and that their account was frozen because law enforcement believed they were?
4:45 p.m.
Supt Denis Beaudoin
We were in constant communication with the banks and the financial institutions at that point. We wanted to have open communication. If that had been the case, somebody would have called the banks and been able to prove to them that they were no longer or not involved in criminal activities. We certainly offered to be contacted by the banks to either affirm this or provide any information as necessary.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Not to belabour the point too much, but I think it's important for people to know. If they feel they were wrongly targeted, because they weren't in the area, I'm just trying to figure out what the process would look like for them, not only to have their account unfrozen but.... Are there any extant frozen accounts from the use of the Emergencies Act? I have to believe there aren't, because the emergency period has come to an end.
What documentation do people have in order to be able to say, “My account was frozen because someone believed that I was in the Ottawa area during that time. I was not in the area during that time, so my account was improperly frozen”? If they are seeking some kind of remedy or redress for that, on what basis would they do that? What kind of documentation would they have?
A phone call is one thing. They call the bank and say, “I was never in the Ottawa area. Unfreeze my account.” The bank talks to you guys, and the account is unfrozen. However, in the event that there was some kind of timely transaction they weren't able to make because their account was frozen and they want to seek a remedy, what kind of documentation can they expect to get to help them in their effort to pursue that question with the courts?
4:50 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
I think the best way would be to communicate with their institution. From there, the institution will probably come back to us, and we'll have a discussion.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
Thank you, MP Blaikie.
We're moving to the Conservatives. We have MP Fast up for five minutes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you very much.
I want to echo the congratulations to both of you and the RCMP for the role you played in effectively and peacefully bringing an end to the protest.
Mr. Arcand, I understand you testified that the freezing of accounts under the Emergencies Act was intended to encourage the influencers and the leaders of the protest to stand down. How many of the key leaders and influencers of the protest actually did stand down as a result of the banks freezing their accounts or the threat of their accounts being frozen?
4:50 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
To answer your question directly, I don't have the specific numbers. The initial number that was provided to the banks on entities that we know were influencers, which came directly from the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service, was approximately 14 or 15.
As for how many left, I don't have those numbers.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Could I have you provide the committee with that information? It is critical because it goes to the very efficacy of the powers that were exercised under the Emergencies Act. What we want to know is whether the Emergencies Act actually achieved what it was intended to, which was to get the influencers and the leaders to back down.
Is it also your evidence that those freezing powers could have been exercised only by the triggering of the Emergencies Act?
4:50 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
If you mean as a way to have the bank freeze the accounts, then yes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
So there's no method outside of the Emergencies Act, no legal method, under which you could gain the power to have accounts frozen. Is that right?
4:50 p.m.
Supt Denis Beaudoin
One thing we couldn't do was to share information with the banks. Really, that was the only thing police gained from the act, to be able to share information with the financial institutions. There is no provision in place that is so clear right now.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
But there is a provision for the RCMP to freeze accounts by getting a court order. Is that correct?
4:50 p.m.
Supt Denis Beaudoin
Yes, but in this case it wasn't the RCMP that was applying to seize the assets, as it would be in normal cases. The police services were given the power to share information.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
All right.
Over the three weeks leading up to the triggering of the Emergencies Act, did the RCMP ever apply to the courts for powers to take down the blockade, for powers to freeze assets, to discourage protesters? Was there any point in time during those three weeks when the RCMP actually availed themselves of the existing policing and legal authorities to achieve a peaceful end to the protest?
4:55 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
You question is directed at the role of the RCMP, so with the protests in Ottawa, we weren't the lead agency on this. It was the Ottawa Police Service and the Ontario police service.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Did the federal government ever ask you to take the lead, as it did in the end when it came to freezing accounts and bringing an end to the protests?
4:55 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
For us, it was clear that the Ottawa Police Service had the jurisdiction on what was going on in downtown Ottawa.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
The RCMP had no involvement at all with the federal government in providing advice and opportunities...?
4:55 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
We were providing advice and support, but the lead was still the police of jurisdiction.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Did you ever ask the federal government to avail itself of existing legal and police authorities to bring an end to the protest?
4:55 p.m.
A/Commr Michel Arcand
To my knowledge, no.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
I'm sorry to hear that. It's unfortunate that the Emergencies Act was even triggered in the first place. It was quite unnecessary, in my mind.
I have a couple of further questions, if I might, gentlemen, and I appreciate your candour.
How did the RCMP actually identify individuals targeted by the emergency economic measures order?
4:55 p.m.
Supt Denis Beaudoin
There are two streams of people or entities that were disclosed to the financial institutions. The first one, as we mentioned, came from the OPP and the OPS, and those would have been or were the suspects in their investigation. The second stream came from the plate numbers of trucks and vehicles in the downtown area.