Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

On the question of joint accounts, which came up earlier, you said that this was something that was being addressed as a potential problem and there was some discussion about how it might be solved. Do you think it would be useful to carry on those discussions and, in future, if government does ever use provisions like this again, for there to be some more clear direction at the outset as to how difficult cases like those would be managed?

[Angelina Mason]

The Department of Finance was considering that, and it became a moot point, but my guess is that they would probably include that themselves.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Do you think it would be useful to your members in a future event, if something similar were to happen, to have more direction upfront from the government as to how they'd like those more complicated scenarios to be handled?

[Angelina Mason]

Yes. That would be helpful.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

That's good for this round, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

We're moving to the Conservatives and MP Fast. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you very much to our two witnesses. I appreciate your being here.

I have two questions. First of all, to follow up on Ms. Dzerowicz's question, you mentioned that donations in themselves would not trigger an assessment as to whether that donation falls under the order that the government triggered. Is that correct?

[Angelina Mason]

I said that.... I was trying to establish the application of.... Outside of the names that were provided by the RCMP, a small donation wouldn't have been caught by our normal risk-based approach. What I was trying to emphasize is that it's highly unlikely.

I also want to clarify that we did not rely on external information, including leaked donor lists.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I understand.

What if it were a large donation, whether directly to the convoy or through a crowdfunding platform?

[Angelina Mason]

If it was conducted during the time that the order was invoked, it would raise that legal obligation.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

What's the threshold?

[Angelina Mason]

There's not a specific dollar threshold. You'd be asking if there was some sort of unusual activity going on.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

If someone with a bank account with $10,000 decided to give $3,000, would that be an unusual activity?

[Angelina Mason]

I couldn't speak for the specific circumstance of that monitoring and what would trigger it. It may not, depending on what the normal account activity is like.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

All right.

I have another question. In the days following the invocation of the Emergencies Act, when information about the freezing of accounts became more public, did the banks notice any increase in withdrawal activity? I was one of those who contacted the CBA to find out, but I'd love to hear it from you.

Was there an increase in withdrawal activity in the days following the triggering of the Emergencies Act?

[Angelina Mason]

There are anecdotal stories. There isn't anything of significance, but due in part to misinformation, people thought that if their account was with a bank, as opposed to a credit union, it would somehow make a difference. There was some information and education needed that the Emergencies Act applied regardless of which type of financial institution was engaged, but there has not been anything of concern. It's these anecdotal stories.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You referred to anecdotal stories, but as a matter of fact, are you saying that withdrawal activity did not increase measurably?

[Angelina Mason]

That's correct.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Did you or your industry take any steps to assuage account holders across Canada that, in fact, there wasn't a rush on money at the banks and that everything was going to be fine?

[Angelina Mason]

I don't recall making.... We typically don't respond to misinformation about those types of things, but I would turn to my colleague Darren.

Do you know if there were any proactive comments made?

[Darren Hannah, Vice-President, Finance, Risk and Prudential Policy, Canadian Bankers Association]

I wouldn't say there were proactive comments. At the end of the day, to Ms. Mason's point a moment ago, we didn't really see a material change.

If people had concerns, each bank would respond to them, but that would be on a customer-by-customer basis.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You mentioned, Ms. Mason, that you consulted with the government on the way forward, the scope of the legislation and how the government expected it to be implemented.

Did you fully trust the government to provide you with information that was factually and legally correct, or did you seek out your own legal opinions on how the order and the Emergencies Act should and could be applied?

[Angelina Mason]

I would say that the guidance being provided by the government was well within the specific language in the order itself. Obviously, all of our banks have in-house counsel. I myself am counsel. We all would have looked at the order itself and seen what the scope of those obligations was. Then when the government advised of its intent, which made it quite targeted, that was considered to be reassuring.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Did you feel that you had any discretion? Say yes or no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Fast. I'm sorry, but that was the time—