Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Angelina Mason]

I don't have the exact number of those that are still frozen. Any ones remaining that are frozen are because of orders, the court orders and the provincial orders. All of the accounts that were frozen as a result of the Emergencies Act that weren't subject to those orders are already unfrozen.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

There was one supreme court of Ontario, I think, judge who froze bank accounts related to that.

Did you guys play any part in that role?

[Angelina Mason]

We did not.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

If individuals disputed a decision to freeze their bank accounts, was there a mechanism in place for them—not a hearing but a red flag, to say that this might be a mistake, or is this a recourse or something to that effect?

[Angelina Mason]

If someone had a concern, they would contact their financial institution. When a financial institution was acting upon the information provided by the RCMP, then the logical step would be for them to contact the RCMP directly.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Are you aware of any bank accounts that were determined to have been frozen in error?

[Angelina Mason]

Not that we are aware of.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

How did the banks, in conjunction with the RCMP—you mentioned this a little bit maybe in your preamble—possibly determine if one was sustaining an organized illegal activity? What is the red flag that goes up beside the obvious: a large sum of money being deposited into an account? Are there other things you look for when you're trying to make a decision as to whether or not this may be a fraudulent situation?

[Angelina Mason]

In the case of persons identified by the RCMP, we could look at the specific transactions.

If you're asking about the other duties under the order that talked about independent determinations by banks, that's a very different scenario. If you're talking about the names that are given, which is what the banks primarily relied on, then you can look at their specific activities.

Otherwise what banks relied on was their risk-based approach. They monitor in a general fashion for unusual activity, but that's a pretty high threshold. If there is threshold found to be unusual, it would then obviously be looked at with the lens of the activities that were happening within Ottawa.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have a minute and a half left.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

On the other side, basically what I want to ask is about what changes we need to make. You've talked about the process via the RCMP to the bank. Is there anything the big banks have learned in all this, and how do they apply it to further situations relevant to the one we're in today?

[Angelina Mason]

Again, this has never been invoked before, so there was some real-time learning, including having clarity upfront as to the scope, which we were able to get. That was in large part attributed to the speed with which the act was invoked, but it was good to know upfront, for example, that no activity prior to the date of the order applied. It was also helpful to know that, once the accounts were frozen, there wasn't a forfeiture, and once they were unfrozen, it was just a release of the accounts. It's those kinds of details that typically you would see in sanctions in other legislation that have been experienced more.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP MacDonald. That was great, right on time.

We are moving to the Bloc and MP Ste-Marie, for six minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Good afternoon, Ms. Mason and Mr. Hannah. Thank you very much for coming. I greatly appreciate it.

If I understand correctly, the RCMP provided banks and financial institutions with a list of individuals whose accounts should be frozen. The order allowed banks and financial institutions to freeze the accounts of people who were present at the occupation of Ottawa or who were funding it.

To your knowledge, did your members freeze only the accounts of people whose names appeared on the list provided by the RCMP, or did they freeze the accounts of people whose names did not appear on the list?

[Angelina Mason]

First, I would like to clarify that it was not a case of allowing us to freeze accounts. It was actually a legal duty to freeze accounts, and that's why we were very concerned, given that this was a legal duty, to ensure that it was applied in the very narrow scope of which it was intended.

Yes, in addition to freezing the accounts of those names, there are some situations where accounts were frozen based on the risk-based approach of identifying situations that were suggestive of participation in the activities that were covered by the order.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I see, thank you. That's very interesting information.

On the one hand, the banks had to freeze the accounts of people who were on the list provided by the RCMP, and on the other hand, depending on how the order was written, the banks had to freeze the accounts of people who were not on the RCMP list, but who appeared to be involved in or contributing financially to the events in Ottawa.

Since the order was worded rather vaguely, from my point of view, it seems to be difficult to enforce and contains relatively little detail. I would like to return to the question asked by my fellow member Mr. Chambers. He asked you whether the Department of Finance or any other authority, be it the government or the RCMP, had provided you with clearer written instructions on how to proceed. My understanding is that they did not provide written instructions, but rather verbal instructions.

Is this correct?

[Angelina Mason]

So there was no published guidance as you would normally have for regulations, but that would typically be because.... Like I said, I attribute it to the timing. Typically, regulations would be published, you'd have a chance to look at them and ask questions, guidance would be developed and then everything would come into force at once.

But in this case, they were in force all at once, so that's why we had to rely on briefings from the Department of Finance to make sure we had absolute clarity on implementation.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

From my point of view, it is really difficult to have clear rules when they are not written down.

What instructions were you given in cases where the client in question had a joint account with someone who was not involved in what was happening in Ottawa? What happened to payments for rent, utility bills and child support?

Were you provided with any guidance for these particular cases?

[Angelina Mason]

Typically when an account is frozen, regardless of whether it's a joint account, it freezes the entire account. We did raise with the Department of Finance what you would call “humanitarian exceptions”. There weren't any exceptions in the order itself, so we did raise with Finance what you would call “humanitarian exceptions” of the nature that you've spoken about. It was under consideration by Finance, but then became a moot point quite quickly because they had revoked the order.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

All right. Thank you. That is very enlightening.

In its order, the government did not take into consideration humanitarian reasons, as you say. For example, if a father who had to pay child support to his ex‑wife participated in the protests in Ottawa, the government's order could result in his account being frozen. Ultimately, his children and his ex‑wife would bear the brunt of that decision, because of the lack of details in the application of the order. I find this unacceptable. This is, in my view, a serious problem.

Did your members have the impression that they had to play the role of police?

As you said, they didn't have to limit themselves to the list of names provided by the RCMP. They had to determine, using their own risk-based approach, if there were people who might be protesting in Ottawa or funding part of the protest.

[Angelina Mason]

In that case, they were having to identify—again, applying a risk-based approach—the specific activity, and then we would share that information with the RCMP.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I see.

It was up to the banks to monitor people.

I still have many more questions, but I see that my time is up, so I will come back to them.

Thank you again for your answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

We are moving to the NDP and MP Blaikie for six minutes.