Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay.

FINTRAC was before our committee. They had some interesting testimony on the flow of the money into the crowdfunding and into the protests, that they did not see any evidence of terrorist activity. Did you see any evidence of terrorist activity in the funding of these illegal protests and blockades?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I did not.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you for that.

I understand that there was an argument for general deterrents, but specific deterrents.... I understand that the spectre of having their bank account frozen may have held people back from coming out. However, even after the bank accounts started getting frozen, and this was released, I did not see the trucks leave until your officers did their great work and cleared the protesters. I did not see people get in their trucks and drive away when the bank accounts were frozen.

Am I missing something, or were there material cases of people saying, “Oh, my bank account is frozen; I'm getting in my truck and I'm driving home”?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

As I said, we contacted people before providing information to financial institutions. During this time, a lot of people wanted to leave, but were not in a position to leave because the streets were not cleared. We instructed these people to be ready and to make sure their truck was ready to leave when the streets were cleared, and then provided a picture of the situation on different streets in Ottawa. That information was passed on to the command centre in charge of freeing the streets.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you for your testimony. I see that my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

We are moving to the Liberals and MP Chatel for five minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Arcand and Mr. Beaudoin, thank you for being here. Like Mr. Ste‑Marie, I'm very proud of the job you did during a time that was gruelling for everyone.

We've talked a lot about the fact that it was possible to take measures much more quickly under the Emergencies Act. Had all the individuals who protested in Ottawa and around the country been taken to court, in order to freeze the funding for their unlawful activities, how long would that have taken?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

You make a good point. It's hard to know how long it would have taken, because each case is different.

Nevertheless, one thing is certain. We would not have been able to do it as quickly as the Emergencies Act allowed us to.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

We might still be seeing protests all over the country otherwise.

Earlier, we were trying to figure out who all of this benefited. I think that's a pivotal question.

I'll give you some context.

Certain groups in the U.S., television stations and politicians included, spread propaganda associated with some of President Putin's talking points. Those same individuals publicly encouraged people to make donations in support of the unlawful activities taking place in Canada, specifically the freedom convoy and blockades. I find that very concerning.

I recently read two very serious economic studies. One was from the Cambridge University Press. A number of economists set about putting a figure on Russia's dark money. They estimated it to be $1 trillion, with a quarter being held by Putin, himself.

Imagine one of Mr. Putin's cronies decided to fund—directly or indirectly—a platform for far-right groups and to donate $1 million to fund the activity of groups in Canada looking to overthrow Canada's democratically elected government. Today, how would you find that information under the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

The changes that were made to subject crowdfunding sites to FINTRAC's rules will certainly make a difference in terms of giving FINTRAC the ability to identify those payments and transfers before notifying police.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

If it happened today, would we know?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Yes, because the act's coverage now extends to sites.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Yes, the Emergencies Act covers crowdfunding platforms, but the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act does not. Is that right?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

As I understand it, permanent changes are being made to that effect.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Including those platforms in the act is a good change, then. Last year, changes were made in relation to cryptocurrencies, which are now covered by the act.

The Emergencies Act covers service providers as well. Do you think it's a good idea to include them on a permanent basis?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

You're absolutely right. Financial crime is constantly changing, and as you said, cryptocurrencies and crowdfunding platforms play a role in that. It's important that we adapt and that FINTRAC have access to real-time information about those platforms to in turn notify police.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chatel.

We are moving to the Bloc, with MP Ste-Marie, for two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Beaudoin, I'm going to stay on the topic of cryptoassets. You said earlier that protesters received support in the form of bitcoin—a cryptoasset—to the tune of more than one million dollars Canadian.

Were you the one who followed the money that funded the occupation in Ottawa? If so, did those cryptoassets come mainly from Canada or foreign countries?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Staff examined the source of the funds, but I don't have that information with me.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

If you could get back to us with that information, I would certainly appreciate it.

In your efforts to combat financial crime and follow the money, why do cryptoassets pose a bigger challenge than traditional currencies?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Bitcoin and other popular cryptocurrencies are the ones we hear about most, but there are about 17,000 virtual currencies out there right now, if I'm not mistaken. It only takes a few minutes for someone to create their own cryptocurrency. That means the landscape is constantly changing, so we need to adapt. It's so easy to create a new cryptocurrency that it makes it tough to enforce the act.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Is it harder to track transactions based in existing cryptoassets that the force is familiar with—like bitcoin—than it is to track transactions based in traditional currencies?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I would say yes. However, besides existing tools in the public domain to track funds, we have to develop our own expertise to stay abreast of and adapt to new methodology.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

My turns are only two and a half minutes long, and the next issue I want to discuss is insurance. I will need more time for that, so I'll come back to it in 20 minutes or so.