Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I just want to go over this ground again. It's been said that these leaked lists of donors were not part of the information that was passed on by the RCMP to financial institutions. So how did the RCMP develop the list that they forwarded on to financial institutions? Would RCMP members on the ground have taken licence plates and derived the identity of the owner of the car that way? Were they card-checking people on the street in Ottawa? How did they identify the individuals who ended up on a list of names that the RCMP communicated to financial institutions?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

We did share information received from Ottawa police and Ontario police that was gathered initially. There were 15 entities provided to us based on information collected by those services.

The next phase was actually looking at the trucks or vehicles that didn't want to leave, that were blocking the downtown area of Ottawa in the illegal protests. We gathered intelligence information based on licence plates, names of companies and drivers at the same time.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. We've also heard that only the names of people who were in the area were passed on. Was it only the names of people who were thought to be in Ottawa that were passed on, or were there names from the border blockades as well?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

We only looked into the use of the measure in Ottawa. It is possible that somebody from B.C. was located in Ottawa, but we looked at Ottawa only.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

It's also been said that once people left the area in Ottawa, their accounts could be unfrozen. What did that process look like? Was that a kind of individual-led process? They got out of the area and they wanted to let somebody know. They wanted their account unfrozen, so they were going to call the RCMP or their financial institution. Did the RCMP proactively provide information to financial institutions if the RCMP independently was satisfied that the person had left? What was the verification procedure for unfreezing accounts, for confirming that people were no longer in the area in Ottawa?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

Some were as you just mentioned. People tried as well to go through the banking institutions to prove that they had left the area. Some of the information we had showed that a person had left the area, but you need to realize that even though the blockade was taken down in a few days, the downtown was very volatile, so we needed to make sure that the risk was not present. We also took the initiative to reach out to some entities to have a discussion with them, and from there we identified which ones were or were not designated and we provided information to the institutions so they could take action.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

One of the things we've heard is that when people's accounts were frozen under the authority of the Emergencies Act, it was up to the financial institution that they bank with to decide whether to notify them that their account has been frozen under the authority of the Emergencies Act.

Do you think that ensuring that people were notified that their account was frozen as a direct result of the authorities granted under the Emergences Act would have helped or enhanced the deterrent effect of freezing accounts?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

It's hard to really establish whether or not it would have helped, but what I can say is that proactively, before providing information to the banks, the RCMP also contacted a number of people to ask them where they were, and a lot of them would answer that they were in the blockades and they were not leaving, for example. Then we would tell them at that point so they would be aware of the emergency measures.

On top of the situation being very public, we also took action to call people ahead of time, before the information was provided to the financial institutions.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Would you say that the RCMP at least made an effort to contact everyone who was on the list you shared with financial institutions, prior to handing over the name?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

We have to understand that, as Assistant Commissioner Arcand said, 15 entities were provided by the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service. Of the rest that the RCMP provided, I want to say that for the vast majority of them, an attempt would have been made to contact them to ascertain where they were before it was provided.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

In the cases where those attempts were not made, would that be because the person met certain criteria, or would that be because of what we might colloquially call “falling through the cracks”—because the names came from other organizations, outside the RCMP?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Some people may not have been contacted because the evidence was overwhelming that they were participating in the designated offence. It would have been on a case-by-case basis, based on all the information that could be gathered.

You have to understand that a lot of information was also available publicly to the banks and law enforcement. The totality of the information would have been taken into account.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I know the time goes fast.

Members, that ends our first round. We are moving into the second round.

We have the Conservatives up first.

MP Lawrence, you have five minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your service to our country. It's greatly appreciated.

I'm hoping that you can clear up a little bit of confusion I have. First of all, just to establish the facts, my understanding is that you were very specific in the way you used the Emergencies Act. Only people who were actively involved in those protests had their bank accounts frozen. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you for that. Thank you for your brevity as well.

When we look at the order, it says, “any individual or entity that is engaged, directly or indirectly”. So it is broad enough. Professors and other people have commented that this is certainly enough, that you could have provided information, and in fact bank accounts could have been frozen, just based on that area.

For your work, you didn't need the provision to be nearly that broad. Am I correct in that?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

We enforced the law as it was passed, but we certainly put a finer comb to it. As I said earlier, the sole purpose of using these methods was to clear the downtown area as peacefully as possible.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes. Thank you for that. But it says “directly or indirectly”. “Indirectly” gets to the financial contribution. You didn't use that. They had to have direct involvement in there. I understand the general deterrent, but when the justice minister goes out on TV and says that a financial contribution—granted, a large one—could result in your bank account being frozen, or you should be worried, anyway....

But that wasn't what the RCMP was doing. Is that correct? Unless someone was involved directly in the protests, you were not giving information to the bank accounts. I'm just confused as to why the government would spread this misinformation.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I can't comment on what other people have said. The only thing we can offer is the way the RCMP used the act.

As with any piece of legislation, we make decisions sometimes, and in this case we made the decision to clear the protest as peacefully as possible. For example, we didn't provide information to insurance providers, because we really wanted to make sure the trucks would leave on their own—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thanks very much. I appreciate that. But for the purposes of drafting the act, if this ever came into...ever had to and hopefully never will, you did not need that broad a scope. You could have had it much narrower. It could have said “directly” as opposed to “indirectly”. That could have reassured quite a few Canadians who thought that their bank account might get frozen, as the justice minister said, just simply based on a financial contribution.

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

For Ottawa, it was more used directly, but if we had other places with protests, we could have used “indirectly”. It is possible.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

But you didn't. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

For Ottawa we didn't.