Evidence of meeting #38 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rate.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tiff Macklem  Governor, Bank of Canada
Carolyn Rogers  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting on the report of the Bank of Canada on monetary policy.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application. Per the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on March 10, 2022, all those attending the meeting in person must wear a mask, except for members who are in their place during proceedings.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard. That being said, I request that members and witnesses treat each other with respect and decorum.

Before we begin, I'd like to remind our members, as discussed during the last meeting on the Emergencies Act draft report, to please submit any final comments or suggestions in both languages to the clerk as soon as possible.

It's my pleasure to be able to welcome our witnesses today. I say “welcome back” to the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklem. Joining Tiff is his senior deputy governor, Carolyn Rogers.

Welcome. The floor is yours.

11 a.m.

Tiff Macklem Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning.

Let me say how pleased senior deputy governor Carolyn Rogers and I are to be here in person to discuss our monetary policy report and our decision of a couple of weeks ago.

We published our monetary policy report as Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine entered its eighth week. The war is causing tremendous human suffering and our hearts go out to the Ukrainian people. The war has also injected new uncertainty into the global economic outlook. It is boosting already high inflation in many countries, including Canada, and it's disrupting the global economic recovery.

Against this backdrop, we have three main messages. First, the Canadian economy is strong. Overall, the economy has fully recovered from the pandemic and is now moving into excess demand. Second, inflation is too high. It is higher than we expected, and it's going to be elevated for longer than we previously thought. Third, we need higher interest rates.

Our policy interest rate is our primary tool to keep the economy in balance and bring inflation back to the 2% target. Two weeks ago we raised our policy rate by 50 basis points to 1%, and we indicated that Canadians should expect further increases.

Let me expand on each of these three themes.

Canadians have been through a lot in the past two years. Everyone has been touched by the pandemic, through illness or the loss of loved ones, fear and uncertainty, job loss or business closure. We experienced the sharpest and deepest recession on record, and repeated waves of the virus have made the recovery bumpy.

Thanks to exceptional monetary and fiscal stimulus, effective vaccines and a willingness to adapt and innovate, the economy has bounced back remarkably quickly. It has been the fastest and sharpest recovery ever, and now demand is beginning to run ahead of the economy's productive capacity.

The labour market shows this clearly. Before the pandemic, the unemployment rate was 5.7%. When the pandemic hit, it quickly soared to 13.4%, and now, two years later, it is at a record low of 5.3%. Job vacancies are elevated and wage growth has reached prepandemic levels. Businesses can’t find enough workers to meet demand, and they're telling us they’ll need to raise wages to attract and retain workers.

We expect strong growth to continue in the months ahead. As remaining public health restrictions ease, Canadians are spending more on services—travel and recreation, lodging and restaurants—and they're still buying a lot of goods. Housing activity is still strong, and while we expect it to moderate, it will remain elevated.

Business investment and exports are both picking up, and higher prices for many of the commodities Canada exports are bringing more income into the country. Robust business investment, improved labour productivity and higher immigration should help boost the economy’s productive capacity, and higher interest rates will slow spending.

Putting all this together, the bank forecasts that the Canadian economy will grow 4¼% this year, before moderating to 3¼% in 2023 and 2¼% in 2024.

That brings me to my second point.

The bank’s primary focus is inflation. The CPI inflation in Canada hit a three-decade high of 6.7% in March, well above what we projected in the January monetary policy report. The war has driven up the prices of energy and other commodities and is further disrupting global supply chains. While most of the factors pushing up inflation come from beyond our borders, with the economy in excess demand, we are facing domestic price pressures too. About two-thirds of CPI components are growing above 3%, which means that Canadians are feeling inflation across their household budgets, from gas to groceries to rent.

Our latest outlook is for inflation to average almost 6% in the first half of 2022 and remain well above our 1% to 3% control range throughout the year. We then expect it to ease to about 2½% in the second half of 2023 before returning to the 2% target in 2024.

High inflation affects everyone. Inflation at 5% for a year—or three percentage points above our target—costs the average Canadian an additional $2,000 a year, and it's affecting the more vulnerable members of society the most, because they spend all their income and because prices of essential items like food and energy have risen sharply.

This broadening in price pressures is a big concern. It makes it more difficult for Canadians to avoid inflation, no matter how patient or prudent they are as shoppers.

This brings me to my third point—interest rates are increasing. The economy needs higher rates and can handle them. With demand starting to run ahead of the economy's capacity, we need higher rates to bring the economy into balance and cool domestic inflation.

We also need higher interest rates to keep Canadians' expectations of inflation anchored on the target. We can't control or even influence the prices of most internationally traded goods. But if Canadians' expectations of inflation stay anchored on the 2% target, inflation in Canada will come back down when global inflationary pressures from higher oil prices and clogged supply chains abate.

We are committed to using our policy interest rate to return inflation to target, and we will do so forcefully if needed.

Increases in the bank’s policy rate raise the interest rates on business loans, consumer loans and mortgage loans, and they increase the return on savings. We have been clear that Canadians should expect a rising path for interest rates, but seeing their mortgage payments and other borrowing costs increase can be worrying. We will be assessing the impacts of higher rates on the economy carefully.

We recognize that everyone wants to know where rates might end up. How high are they going to go? It's important to remember that we have an inflation target, not an interest rate target. This means that we don't have a preset destination for the policy interest rate, but what I can say is that Canadians should expect interest rates to continue to rise towards more normal settings. By “more normal”, we mean within the range we consider for a neutral rate of interest that neither stimulates nor weighs on the economy. We estimate this to be between 2% and 3%. Two weeks ago, we raised the policy rate to 1%, still well below neutral. This is also below the prepandemic policy rate of 1.75%.

How high rates go will depend on how the economy responds and how the outlook for inflation evolves. The economy has entered excess demand with considerable momentum and high inflation, and we are committed to getting inflation back to target.

If demand responds quickly to higher rates and inflationary pressures moderate, it may be appropriate to pause our tightening once we get closer to the neutral rate and then take stock. On the other hand, we may need to take rates modestly above neutral for a period to bring demand and supply back into balance and inflation back to target.

Finally, let me a say a word on our balance sheet. As of this week, we are no longer replacing maturing Government of Canada bonds with new ones, so our balance sheet will shrink. This brings our exceptional monetary policy response full circle.

When the economy needed exceptional support in the depth of the recession, we lowered our policy rate to its lower bound and complemented this with quantitative easing, QE. Last November we ended QE and began reinvestment.

We have now moved to quantitative tightening, QT. With the economy fully recovered, it's time to normalize our balance sheet. QT will complement increases in our policy rate by putting upward pressure on longer-term interest rates.

Mr. Chair, I will stop here.

Senior deputy governor Rogers and I will be very pleased to take your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Governor, for your opening remarks. We appreciate your coming before our committee. Thank you for wearing the Ukrainian flag pin on your lapel. We all stand with Ukraine here.

We are now going to move into rounds of members' questions. The first round will be six minutes for each party. We are going to start with the Conservatives. We have MP Fast up for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Governor, and thank you Ms. Rogers for coming back time and time again to explain monetary policy to members of Parliament.

Governor, you would acknowledge that Canada presently has an affordability crisis. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

It's certainly a big challenge.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

All right.

Over the last year, you've used the term “transitory” to describe our current inflation crisis. Do you still consider our current inflationary pressures to be transitory, or do you have a different way of describing what those inflationary pressures are today?

11:10 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

I think it's fair to say that “team transitory” has disbanded. As you've seen in our own forecasts, we have substantially revised up our outlook for inflation.

Inflation is, today, considerably higher than we thought in January it was going to be. The main reason for that is the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which has boosted commodity prices. It's also further disrupting global supply chains. The other issue at play is—as you're seeing in today's news—that COVID is still with us. China, right now, is going through new lockdowns. That's further disrupting supply chains.

All these factors mean that not only is inflation higher, but it's going to be higher for longer.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

But you're not going to be using—

11:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

To put it a little more positively, it's going to take longer to come down, so, yes, Canadians are, unfortunately, living with higher inflation.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

So we will dispose of the term “transitory”. Is that correct?

11:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

In the most recent year, the inflation rate on a year-to-year basis was 6.7%. Do you expect that rate to go up in the coming months?

11:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

Whether 6.7% is the peak is a tough call. There's quite a lot of volatility in inflation. It could go a little higher or that could be the peak. I do think we're close to the peak. I think what's important is that we do think, as we get into the second half of the year, that these global supply chain issues will start to ease. We will see some decrease in inflation.

But I don't want to pretend that we have great line of sight to these supply chain issues. We do expect it to come down, and what it will underline is that, whether this is the peak or not, 6.7% is too high, and we are committed to using our tools—including, if need be, forcefully—to get inflation back down.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

I'm glad to hear you commit to that.

I would like to ask you specifically about the risk of Canada tipping back into a recession, should inflationary pressures persist. Some economists now believe it is more a question of when, rather than if, a recession is coming.

Is this something you and your officials are planning for, or at least studying?

11:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

It's a very important question.

If you look at our own projection, which we laid out a couple of weeks ago in our monetary policy report, what you see is that growth is moderating. Growth needs to moderate to bring demand in line with the economy supply capacity. That moderating growth is pretty solid growth: 3¼% next year and 2¼% the year after. And if you look at most private sector forecasts, they're broadly similar. They have inflation declining, with growth continuing at a more moderate pace.

I do want to underline, though, that getting this soft landing is not going to be easy. There is a delicate balance here. There are some good reasons to believe we can continue to grow while bringing inflation down. The two most important ones are, first, much of the inflation we have now comes from beyond our borders. We've seen increases in commodity prices and global supply chain disruptions. If oil prices stop going up and begin coming down—even just stop going up—and these global supply chain pressures begin to abate, we should see some natural reduction in inflation, provided we keep inflation expectations well anchored.

Let me underline that last point, which is critical. If we don't keep inflation expectations well anchored, inflation will get stuck at a higher level. So we need to do that, and that is reflected in our actions.

The second reason why you can have growth with declining inflation is that demand is running the house. We can see this in the labour market, where we have a very high level of vacancies. We have very strong employment, but we have a lot of vacancies. If we can moderate demand, we can reduce those vacancies, maintain high levels of employment, bring the economy back into balance and bring inflation back on target.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Because my time is short, I just have one last question.

Many economists are now publicly saying that the Bank of Canada was left behind the curve in its response to controlling inflation, and probably could have increased rates earlier. Would you have responded differently had you known that inflation was going to be at the rate it is today?

11:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

We got a lot of things right. We got some things wrong, and we are responding. You saw that a couple of weeks ago, when we took the unusual step of raising the policy rate by 50 basis points to 1%. We signalled very clearly that Canadians should expect further increases. Looking ahead to our next decision, I expect we will consider taking another 50 basis-point step.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, and thank you, MP Fast.

We are moving to the Liberals. MP Dzerowicz, you have six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to say that it's nice to see both of you in person. Thank you for being here and thank you for your extraordinary service to our nation, particularly during these unprecedented times. I know the job is extra difficult.

I also really appreciate you acknowledging Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, and your compassion. As a Ukrainian-Canadian, I find it awful, every single day, to see what's happening there. I know many Canadians share that feeling.

My first question is on that note. I believe, last week, you were sanctioned by Russia alongside several prominent Canadians. What is your reaction?

11:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

The unprovoked attack of Russia on Ukraine is imposing unimaginable human suffering on the Ukrainian people. It's also seriously disrupting the global economy.

I spent most of last week in Washington at IMF meetings, G7 meetings and G20 meetings. The war really weighed on those meetings in two dimensions. One, this is a shock on top of COVID—it's a shock on top of a shock. It is a catastrophic shock for the Ukrainian economy. It's affecting economies in Europe, but it's rippling around the world. Two, it's also weighing on the global order. We went to Washington to meet with the IMF, the G20, to foster economic co-operation, to manage risks, and Russia is sitting at the table. The very source of this massive disturbance, this unjustified war, is sitting at the table.

The fact that I was sanctioned is just a trivial, minor consequence of this.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

My next question is regarding the IMF. The IMF's World Economic Outlook forecast Canadian real GDP growth leading the pack of all G7 countries in 2022 and 2023, all the while maintaining the lowest net debt-to-GDP ratio. Can you discuss the factors contributing to Canada's strong GDP growth and the strength of our economic recovery?

11:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

In the monetary policy report, we develop in some detail what we think the sources of growth are. Thanks to exceptional monetary and fiscal policies; thanks to very effective vaccines; and thanks fundamentally to the adaptability, the resilience and the innovation of Canadians and Canadian businesses we've had a remarkable recovery, the fastest on record.

But our economy is now moving into excess demand. We are more than fully recovered from the pandemic, and growth needs to moderate. If you look at the sources of growth going forward, you see that households' balance sheets are in good shape, they have record-low unemployment, wages are going up, households are in good financial health, and they're spending. They're particularly spending on many of the services that they couldn't buy through the pandemic.

Businesses are telling us they're reaching capacity limits. They're telling us that they have ambitious investment plans to add capacity so they can respond to that increase in demand. The U.S. economy is robust and it's also hitting its own capacity limits, so that is increasing the demand for our imports.

If you look at the economy, you see that the recovery has been very consumer-led, and we're starting to see some broadening with stronger investment and stronger exports.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

My next question is about wage growth and the impact on inflation.

Last week I was listening to a few economists, and they were talking about how they were worried that wage growth shouldn't be growing as fast as it should be, because it's going to have an increased impact on inflation. My opinion is that our wages are not growing as fast as inflation, and I would say that for too long many workers actually haven't received the wage increase that they've needed to. In fact, there are many industries that are actually behind in terms of wage growth.

Is that something you're worried about in terms of wage growth and the impact on inflation?

11:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

I'll just put the facts on the table. Wage growth was quite weak through the pandemic. It has rebounded and now it's back to a prepandemic level, roughly 3%. There are a whole variety of different measures of wages and different ones will give you slightly different signals, but it's roughly 3%. We do expect wage growth to increase further. Certainly when you talk to companies they're telling us they're having a hard time attracting workers, they're losing workers. They are telling us they're going to have to increase wages further.

The way we look at wages is we look at wages relative to productivity. To put it bluntly, higher productivity pays for higher wages. In our own projection we think there are good reasons why productivity will pick up. Restrictions are being eased so it's easier to get things done. Companies are investing and that's bringing new capital, which means workers will have better equipment, better computers to work with. That should improve output per worker. We do have wage growth picking up and we also have productivity picking up, and as long that happens higher wages are not a source of inflation. If we were to see wages run substantially ahead of productivity growth it would become a concern that, in that situation, higher wage growth could start to become an independent source of inflation. We're not seeing that yet, but it is something we are watching.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.