Finance Committee on Dec. 8th, 2021

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That's great.

Earlier, you said that the donations made by the foundation over the last 12 months had increased tenfold. In fact, 1,975 donations were made by the foundation during this period.

If you were to take over a fund that was intended to help artists in general or self‑employed cultural workers, how many applications could you receive? Are you able to give us an estimate?

[Michel Laperrière]

For example, we received support from the Government of Quebec in two phases.

The first amount, which was $2 million, allowed us to make 950 donations, all of which were for $2,000, the same amount as the Canada emergency response benefit. Indeed, we determined that the reason the CERB was set at $2,000 was because it was a reasonable amount for a person to feed and support their family. So with that $2 million, we made 950 donations.

We then received a second instalment from the government, this time in the amount of $3 million. So far, we've been able to make 1,400 donations with that money. We still have some money left from that fund that we are still administering, but there is very little left—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Laperrière.

Thank you, Monsieur Champoux.

We are now moving to the NDP and Mr. Blaikie for six minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sarangi from Campaign 2000, I just want to come back to you.

I think the Liberal government has made it very clear that with this bill it has said we're out of the woods on the economic side of the pandemic, with the exception of one or two business categories. Largely, there's no support for workers here. It has said it's not going to leave anyone behind, but I know you talked about a CERB repayment amnesty. You talked about some of the benefit clawbacks that we're experiencing.

I know that in respect to CERB, there have certainly been a lot of allegations, but there hasn't been a lot of quantification about CERB fraud and things like that. Can you let the committee know who some of the folks who are really in distress over CERB repayments are?

[Leila Sarangi]

Thank you very much for the question. I think it's so important that we don't lose sight of the individual community members who are struggling.

I've been receiving emails and phone calls from people from coast to coast to coast. This isn't relegated to one part of the country; this is an issue that is happening across the country in terms of the amount of stress that families are under.

I have had, for example, an email from a single mother out in B.C. who has two children with disabilities. She is on B.C. disability assistance and received the CERB because she lost hours of work. She received a letter last September to say that she needs to provide more information or she will have to pay it back. The amount of stress has led her to suicidal ideation.

This is a theme that I have heard from almost every person who has contacted me. I had a senior contact me from the Northwest Territories. She has been rendered homeless because her GIS payments have been reduced. She is sleeping in her car, and she is a senior in the Northwest Territories.

I have heard from people in Nova Scotia who have been forced to sell their businesses because they're not able to maintain their B & B. They don't have enough money. They've been kicked off their GIS. All their GIS has been clawed back in the recalculation. She is living on just over $1,000 a month, and that makes her ineligible for a provincial financial support program because she's not making less than $1,000. She's making somewhere just above the $1,000 a month. There is nowhere in this country that this is an income that can allow you to pay your rent, pay for medication, pay for food and support your family.

This is causing so much stress to the most vulnerable people in our communities. We cannot continue to let these folks fall through the cracks in our systems.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

If the government is insisting on repayment of CERB money from low-income folks, presumably it's because they're hoping to generate revenue or offset costs. How much do you think the government is likely to collect from some of Canada's poorest people, who are already living in financial distress?

[Leila Sarangi]

I mean, probably not much if the payment programs they're talking about are $10 a month or $25 a month. They've said, “Oh, we'll work with folks within their given capacity”, but I'm telling the committee here that there is not even that extra $25 or $10. I think some people were so scared that they have cobbled together and borrowed money and paid back some of the amounts.

We're talking upwards of about.... I think the maximum repayment is about $14,000 per family. That was the maximum. For most of the cases, this money does not exist.

Our new social contract was to stay at home, isolate at home, stock up on your groceries, get your food delivered and buy your PPE and extra cleaning supplies. For your kids, buy more computers and increase your broadband so they can learn at home and socialize at home. These were real costs. The CERB and the CRB went to those items, to those itemized things. The money is just not there in the bank accounts for them to be able to repay. I think the federal government is really only going to get a negligible amount back—if any.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

We talked a bit about the clawback of benefits for the GIS, for instance. For folks who were GIS recipients, when they applied for the CERB alongside their acceptance into the pandemic benefit program, were you aware that they received any kind of notification from government that those benefits could be clawed back in the following year and that they should set some aside because their income the next year wouldn't be anything like their income in the preceding years?

[Leila Sarangi]

That was never part of the messaging that people heard or were given. In fact, I've heard stories of people who have called CRA and said, “Am I going to be penalized for collecting the CERB? I'm asking because I cannot afford to be penalized.” They were assured that they would not be penalized in any kind of way, and then in the following year they had their GIS clawed back. We're talking about seniors who are making less than $18,000 a year. You know, it's really—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Would that also be true for the Canada child benefit?

[Leila Sarangi]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's your time, Mr. Blaikie. Thank you.

We are now moving into our second—

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

The interpreter indicated that it was very difficult for him to interpret what the witness who just answered said, given the poor quality of sound from the microphone.

I don't know if it would be possible to proceed differently for subsequent questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'd be happy just to quickly re-ask the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Ms. Sarangi, can you raise your mike closer to you? Don't put it too close, because we don't want to get the popping sound. Please conclude quickly, and then we will move into our second round with the Conservatives and Mr. Poilievre.

[Leila Sarangi]

Thank you. I had just mentioned that GIS recipients were not aware that there would be any sort of reduction to their GIS in the year following their collecting the CERB. Nobody was made aware, even in cases where they had asked that specific question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we have our second round for the Conservatives.

Mr. Stewart, you have five minutes.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through the chair, again my questions are for FINTRAC, just as last time.

I was wondering if the witnesses from FINTRAC could lay out a description of what some of these suspicious transactions looked like, elaborate on what they looked like at first glance and lay out some of the examples of how pandemic benefits were fraudulently taken by criminals and criminal organizations.

[Barry MacKillop]

Sure. First of all, just to clarify, with regard to the suspicious transactions we saw and any reference to a criminal organization, there were no criminal organizations actually applying for the benefits. There were some criminals who appeared organized, according to the reporting entities and those that report to us, which means there may have been one or two who appeared to be working together. We didn't actually see organized criminal groups that were doing this, just to clarify that.

Typically, there are a couple of things. One is that many criminals, if they're involved in trying to take advantage of a benefit program like CERB, unfortunately are also taking advantage of many other things. These unscrupulous people are often involved in human trafficking or drug trafficking or any other kind of criminality. In many cases the CERB benefits were referenced in the narrative section, or section G, of an STR, which simply said that the person, over and above other suspicions, also received x number of CERB payments over the course of x number of weeks or months. That was in cases where CERB was referenced in an STR but wasn't necessarily the focal point or the focus of the STR.

In other cases, I guess probably the most typical one you would see is one person who has a bank account and is receiving multiple CERB payments going into his or her bank account under different names, and then that money would be quickly disbursed either through money transfers to someone else or to themselves in another institution, or the money would be taken out almost immediately through cash withdrawals at ATMs, for example. What tended to be the primary indicator was that CERB benefits were going into a single bank account although the benefits themselves were being provided under different names, which would suggest that there were some stolen IDs involved here. Someone would steal other IDs, other credentials from other people, or create fictitious names with fictitious credentials in order to receive the benefits directly into their bank account. Then they would remove that money from the bank account as quickly as they could.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I appreciate that.

Could you also elaborate on the CEBA program and what types of activities you noticed with that program?

[Barry MacKillop]

It would be similar. They could be using shell companies or simply businesses that were created that did not have a significant online presence. We've seen this in other areas. It was not distinct and unique to CEBA benefits, but it was an opportunity for, again, the criminal-minded individuals to set up a company in order to receive benefits or to have a company that was essentially going bankrupt, or they had it as a shell company and they would reactivate it in order to receive the benefits. Then they would remove the money from that company.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry, but the bells are ringing. We have to have unanimous consent to continue. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. I'll look for unanimous consent.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.