Minister, thank you.
Evidence of meeting #5 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was support.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #5 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was support.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
You're deflecting, so if I can get you to wrap that up, I have more questions.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON
Yes.
Are Conservatives saying it was wrong to provide the CERB in support of nine million Canadians? Was that a mistake, Mr. McLean?
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. The problem with the approach you're taking is that everyone is forced to just engage in speech-making, because you're not imposing any limits on the question or answer time.
If you could clarify, both for questioners and for answerers, what is the time frame? The reason we're getting so much chaos is that you have not told us the speaking time, unlike your predecessor, who was very clear about how much time we had to ask and to answer.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Mr. Poilievre, it's at the discretion of the chair. What I'm allowing for is that when there is a question—when there is a question and not just a statement that's being made—I listen to the question and then I listen to the answer. I allow for an answer to be had by the minister so that there is time for the minister to provide that answer.
Go ahead, Mr. McLean.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
I did interrupt, because my question was not being answered and I wanted to move on.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Thank you very much.
You talked about the deep economic scarring that followed the 2008 recession. I appreciate the narrative you build about the Conservatives' plan versus your plan, what we would have done and what you did. Talk, talk, talk.... Okay, let's talk about the deep economic scarring from the 2008 recession, when the country got back to balance within a handful of years.
How do you see balance coming back to the amount of debt you've piled on Canadians in the last two years? Six hundred billion dollars' worth of debt, large amounts of it on the government's own balance sheet, and that's not going to cause economic scarring...? We didn't have quantitative easing in 2008. This is a line we've crossed that is going to cause scars for a generation. A generation of Canadians is going to have to pay that back. How can you say that there was scarring in 2008 and not significant scarring now?
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON
Okay. There are a lot of points in there.
First of all, it's probably worth reminding Conservatives of the difference between monetary and fiscal policy. Quantitative easing is the province of the Bank of Canada, and I certainly respect those boundaries.
Second of all, in terms of the recovery between 2008 and today, we now have exceeded 100% of jobs recovered. It took eight months longer, eight months of pain and suffering for unemployed Canadians, to hit that level after 2008. We are on track for a full recovery of GDP in the first quarter of next year, if not sooner. That is three months faster than after the 2008 recession, which was less deep.
In terms of the stability of Canada's finances, let me just say, Moody's and S&P have reaffirmed our AAA rating. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you, Mr. McLean.
We're moving to the Liberals and Ms. Chatel for five minutes.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
If I may, I would like to respond to some of the points that have been raised and ask questions about them.
Some of my colleagues say that it isn't a good thing that our financial markets are healthy and that this only benefits the wealthiest people. I would like to remind them that many workers in Canada need healthy financial markets to preserve their pensions. Therefore, I'm a little surprised to hear that. In my opinion, it's very important for Canadians and their pension funds that we have healthy financial markets.
Another comment also surprised me a lot. I don't know where Mr. Poilievre lived, but the stimulus package was very important for the economy. It has prevented many small‑ and medium‑sized companies from going bankrupt. These are the most vulnerable companies and they are also job creators, so I am very concerned about that. These stimulus measures were very important during the pandemic. It helped the most vulnerable, and it helped the middle class to survive. So I'm glad it was this government that was in power.
That said, I think it is very important to inform the witnesses today of a discussion we had yesterday with the representative of the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, or FINTRAC. It was clearly understood that the standards that have been put in place by Canada in recent years have really paid off. They have ensured that entities such as banks and financial institutions report any suspicious transactions to FINTRAC immediately. This information is immediately analyzed and sent to either the Canada Revenue Agency or organized crime agencies for investigation. Subsequently, there may be audits and consequences.
There was a lot of talk in our program about a Canadian financial crimes agency. The efforts have paid off, Madam Deputy Prime Minister. I encourage us to continue to do so, because we need to make sure that our programs are applied to those who need them, while at the same time fighting fraud. As we heard yesterday, we are very well equipped to deal with that.
Madam Deputy Prime Minister, my question is this: Is there a sense that the government has the necessary tools to ensure that programs are offered to those who need them most?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON
That's an excellent question and an excellent observation.
I think so. In fact, I'm convinced that Canadians understand the importance of this support. They know that it is necessary and sensible, not only for moral reasons but also for economic ones, to preserve economic capacity.
At the same time, Canadians understand that this is expensive and that it is very important to make sure that the money is spent for the purpose it was intended. That's why there are, precisely as you said, measures in place to control that.
In closing, I want to say that I am also convinced that the vast majority of Canadians are honest and don't like asking the government for help. They only do so when they need it.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
Members, we have about 10 minutes left with the minister. This will take us into a fifth round.
First up are the Conservatives.
Mr. Chambers, you have five minutes.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, you just quoted the debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7. If you combine provincial debt with the federal debt, how do we rank with our peers?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON
Ratings agencies look at a number of different factors. They look at provincial debt, they look at federal debt and they look at the net debt-to-GDP ratio. I would also point out that the federal government.... Let me point out two more things, please.
The federal government is not responsible for the fiscal decisions made by provinces, but thanks to the significant direct transfers made to provinces and thanks to the significant support we provided to the Canadian economy, the fiscal picture of the provinces is looking much better now than it did when the pandemic first hit.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you.
We're not responsible for the spending decisions, but we are responsible for significant challenges, so if a province were to go bankrupt, I suspect the first place they would come to for support is the federal government. I think we would all agree that would be the case.
You also mentioned federal net debt, which includes the value of the CPP. I think Canadians would be surprised to understand that the government is taking credit for the value of the CPP and the federal net debt-to-GDP ratio.
We heard yesterday testimony on job vacancies. We have a record number of job vacancies. Has the department or have you looked at some of the potentially distorting effects that some of these supports have had in the job market? We did hear some concern on that yesterday from some of the witnesses.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON
I would like to clarify two things.
The calculations of net debt-to-GDP do not include the CPP. They take into account that our pensions obligations are fully funded, but they do not take into account the CPP and they do include the provinces.
In terms of the jobs market, we are very aware of the importance of having a strong labour force and labour force participation. That's why early learning and child care is so important, and that is why Canada is investing so much in immigration. In fact, we're one of the only countries that has a plan to make up for the immigration that was lost during COVID.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you very much.
I appreciate also the interventions of my colleague from the NDP in asking questions about dividends and share buybacks. I would submit to you, Minister, that you would have an open door to talk about what other restrictions we could put on entities that are maybe receiving support but are paying dividends and buying back shares.
In terms of the projections or the anticipation, how many publicly traded companies do you expect would take advantage of the supports in the $7 billion?