Evidence of meeting #52 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lesley Taylor  Senior Director, Social Tax Policy, Department of Finance
Trevor McGowan  Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Darren D'Sa  Adviser, Tax Policy, Department of Finance

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to move CPC-5. This particular amendment is to delay the implementation of the excise regime for wine, for example, to push it back until January 1, 2023.

As we know, COVID-19 has been extremely difficult for many businesses, but imagine you are a vintner. You have waited five years for your grapes to grow. You have been able to cultivate them, to bottle them, to do all the labelling and market the product, and then you find out that your most profitable area, your cellar door, has been slammed shut because of COVID.

Many small and medium-sized wineries have taken such tremendous damage because tourism, as you know, Mr. Chair, has dried up, and many people were loath to go out even if wineries were able to be open.

This is a sector that has also been hit especially hard by supply shortages. The supply chain, particularly for bottles, has been a huge challenge.

The government in capitulating to the Australians would say, “We said we would have it done by July 1.” Well, COVID has happened. The supply chains have happened, and if you don't bottle by the end of June, essentially you have to pay excise on the existing inventory in your wine barrels. Because it's not bottled, they will have to pay, and they will take a major hit.

The government is already reining in all sorts of revenue due to higher oil prices and higher inflation. Its user fees, which are also linked to inflation, are bringing in more revenue than they ever have. Quite honestly, I know that some Liberals might say, “Wait a second. We agreed to do this.” Well, you agreed to do this first of all without talking to the industry. You made the decision. Second of all, the Australians challenged the WTO because they were standing up for their industry.

Now this is the opportunity for us all to stand up for ours, to give them a little more time so that they can get their bottles and bottle their wine. This is not a huge ask. If members want to say that it's all about following through with our word, do you know what? I would simply suggest that if you say to the Australians that we are deferring this to give the industry a little bit of breathing room, they would understand.

Why? Let me explain one thing, just so members can understand. There is one vintage of one particular company in Australia the scale of which is larger than the entire wine industry put together, big and small—one vintage from Australia. They are major international players.

When Bill Morneau, the former finance minister, came to this committee, and I asked him if he had done any economic assessment on the excise escalator, he said no. When we asked about the trade implications, he said they hadn't considered them.

All of this has stemmed from the government continuing to mismanage this file. All we are asking for here in this amendment is simply to give a little breathing room to the industry to allow them to bottle so that these small and medium-sized wineries are not hit with a CRA excise bill, something that many of them have never had to pay in their existence. While the government gives them that time, it can also then introduce its replacement program, which it has been talking about for two years and has yet to unveil to industry.

This is a win-win for our industry. The Australians will just be satisfied because they are ultimately getting what they want. Canadian premium product is on the same level playing field as Australians'. I was actually fighting to say that because the Australians have huge support, as do the Americans, as do the French, as do the Spanish, for their wine industry, which pales in comparison to what we do for the Canadian wine industry.

That's what my intervention is. While I have the floor, Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the officials a question pertaining to this section if that's all right.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

MP Albas, yes, it's your right.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

For the officials, in 2017, as I mentioned, the federal government introduced legislation basically to automatically increase beer, wine and spirits excise duty rates on April 1 of every year. Obviously, that was with an index to the CPI.

Now, with monthly CPI inflation exceeding 6%, these same brewers, wineries and distilleries are looking at an excise duty rate increase next April that could be in the 6% to 7% range at a time when production costs are already soaring. That obviously is leading to higher prices, which means less pickup.

My question for the officials is this. Are you rethinking the automatic CPI approach to taxation given that the environment has completely changed? If so, will you be recommending to the finance minister's office for next year's increase to be deferred to provide Canadian consumers and also our beverage and alcohol producers some much-needed relief from these annual increases?

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Albas.

I believe we will have one of the officials now.

We have Mr. Darren D'Sa.

5:45 p.m.

Adviser, Tax Policy, Department of Finance

Darren D'Sa

I think I can say at this time that we have not been looking into changing the inflation adjustment measures.

I can also say that probably, just as a question or a point about the proposed amendment, it might be attempting to amend the wrong section. The proposed amendment that we have looks to amend clause 133, but I think MP Albas is trying to amend clause 132.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay.

Mr. Chair, if you could give us just two minutes so we can confirm that, I would appreciate it. It would be a simple amendment. I just want to make sure that we have this correct.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Okay.

Are you certain about that, Mr. D'Sa?

5:45 p.m.

Adviser, Tax Policy, Department of Finance

Darren D'Sa

At least what we received showed that the amendment was for clause 133, which is the relief for the non-alcoholic beer, but it is clause 132 that is the wine measure.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

All right.

Members, we're going to suspend for just a minute.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We're back, members.

Just before you have the floor, MP Albas, in conferring with the legislative clerk, we have already voted on clause 132. If we went back, we would require unanimous consent.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I would ask for unanimous consent to at least have it tabled, and then we can let the debate go.

Thank you.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Okay.

Members...?

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

No.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

No, we can't go back.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I'm going to again confer with the legislative clerk.

We still have CPC-5 before us, so the committee does have to look to....

Before we go to the vote on CPC-5, is MP Albas is looking to withdraw CPC-5?

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

If there's no support for it to move forward, is there a possibility that we could just simply amend it or are we just done? I think the committee has expressed its views.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

You could look to have a subamendment to your amendment CPC-5.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Yes, so I would move to change it from clause 133 to clause 132.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Again, MP Albas, you would need unanimous consent.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay. Yes, I know how this movie works, Mr. Chair.

I'll just simply say that I think it's really unfortunate that rather than voting down a motion the government clearly doesn't support, they're continuing to try to use other means, but do you know what? I'm a big boy. I respect that other members of Parliament have the right to intervene and to deny unanimous consent. That's something we can do on a regular basis if necessary.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Albas. For clarity, were you withdrawing CPC-5?

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Yes.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We would also need unanimous consent to withdraw CPC-5.

Do we have unanimous consent for the withdrawal of CPC-5?

I see some members' hands up.

Is it on this, MP Ste-Marie?

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

My comment ties in with what Mr. Albas said, Mr. Chair.

We are studying a mammoth bill that is more than 400 pages long. We have to vote on 502 clauses, on top of the schedules. The fact that procedure prevents us from discussing an amendment that we should be able to debate all because it mistakenly refers to the wrong clause is truly appalling.

As far as the committee is concerned, this is really creating a negative work atmosphere. Members can support the amendment or vote against it. That's not the problem. They should at the very least have the opportunity to debate it. All because the amendment is one clause off, we won't ever be able to discuss it. This will have serious consequences for small wine producers.

I repeat, this is truly appalling, and I want you and my fellow members to know that, Mr. Chair. I am really not happy with what's happening right now.