Evidence of meeting #58 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prices.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karl Littler  Senior Vice-President, Public Affairs, Retail Council of Canada
Martin Caron  General President, Union des producteurs agricoles
David Tougas  Coordinator, Business Economics, Union des producteurs agricoles
Armine Yalnizyan  Economist and Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers, As an Individual
Sylvain Charlebois  Director, Agri-Food Analytics Lab and Professor, Dalhousie University
Timothy Ross  Executive Director, Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Wednesday, January 12, 2022, the committee is meeting to discuss inflation in the current Canadian economy.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For interpretation, those on Zoom have the choice, at the bottom of the screen, of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Before we begin.... Members will have received the subcommittee report number three from the clerk this morning. Is everyone in agreement with it? Shall the subcommittee report be adopted?

I see a hand up.

Go ahead, MP Albas.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly appreciate the work done by the subcommittee and the clerk in order to have this report here today. Unfortunately, it's already out of date, because, as of today, Bill C-30 was referred to our committee. That means we may need to make some alterations.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to be very brief here, because I know the subcommittee worked very hard to find a consensus. I would simply add an amendment: that Bill C-30 be heard on October 3, which is this Monday; that we receive the minister, officials and the Parliamentary Budget Officer as witnesses, so parliamentarians can ask questions in regard to the bill; and that we allocate resources to do clause-by-clause.

If we could have an extended meeting on Monday, that would be the intention here. The clerk would not be pulling all of his hair out, because we would still have Wednesday to start the pre-budget consultations.

I hope this is considered to be a friendly amendment and we can simply say, if everyone agrees, that we'll work a little harder on Monday night to get that tax relief to the Canadians identified in the bill. Then, I think we can move forward with the rest of the subcommittee report.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Albas.

I hope that is seen as a friendly amendment. Yes, I understand that Bill C-30 has been referred to committee.

I have MP Beech.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would consider that particular amendment to be friendly.

I just want to take this opportunity to say thank you to everybody who sits on our subcommittee for organizing a very good schedule. I would like to thank Mr. Albas, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Blaikie. I think the way we prioritized our issues, including the clause in the subcommittee report that says this particular measure is going to give tax savings to Canadians by giving them a doubling of their GST.... It's an absolute priority.

Although I'm willing to sit longer on Monday if necessary, I would expect that, if there is agreement and that list is the fulsome list, we could probably get testimony from the minister and the PBO, along with clause-by-clause, committed within our normal time period. I'm certainly willing to sit longer if necessary, to get it done by Monday so we can proceed to pre-budget consultations on Wednesday.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Beech.

Go ahead, MP Albas.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I would briefly ask a question.

I think MP Beech said “the minister and the PBO”, but we'd also like to have officials there, in case there's a technical question. The assumption would be that they would be there. Is that right?

Okay, thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

It's the minister, the PBO and officials, then.

Go ahead, MP Blaikie.

5 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say that I'm supportive of the amendment Mr. Albas suggested. This is something that New Democrats are very keen to see pass quickly. I'm very pleased that the committee has some good ideas and great motivation, across party lines, to see this bill go through without any unnecessary delay.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Very good.

Is there any further discussion?

5 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I would like to comment, Mr. Chair.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Yes, go ahead.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I agree with all of this. I appreciate everyone's collaboration and cooperation. Having said that, at a meeting of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, I believe there was some discussion about inviting the Governor of the Bank of Canada in the fall. So I would like to propose another friendly amendment to make the text more reflective of the discussions that took place in the subcommittee. It would be a matter of adding a sentence asking that the committee invite the Governor of the Bank of Canada to appear no later than December 16, 2022.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I see all thumbs-up for that as well.

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Members, is the subcommittee report adopted as amended?

5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

It's adopted. Excellent.

We will now move on to our first panel of witnesses. I'm looking at the time. We do have a hard stop today at 6:30 due to resources, so we have about 45 minutes for each panel. That's how I will divide it up.

On the first panel, from the Retail Council of Canada, we have the senior vice-president of public affairs, Karl Littler. From L'Union des producteurs agricoles, we have David Tougas, coordinator, business economics. The general president, Martin Caron, is also with us.

For opening remarks, Mr. Littler, you have five minutes.

5 p.m.

Karl Littler Senior Vice-President, Public Affairs, Retail Council of Canada

Thank you.

On behalf of the Retail Council of Canada and its members, I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to provide a grocery industry perspective to your study on inflation. I also want to express our hope that this study will properly examine the root causes of inflation, its global context and its many constituent parts.

Here in Canada, we have little contemporary experience with inflation, which has been at historic lows for over 30 years. One problem with this lack of modern experience is that some commentators are rushing to judgment or seeking to play the blame game for their own purposes, when we would be far better served by looking at the problem in all of its complexities. When it comes to food price inflation specifically, the issue needs to be understood, both figuratively and literally, from the ground up.

The reason that prices have risen sharply on grocery shelves is a straightforward one. Vendors—the manufacturers, processors and wholesalers of food—have been raising rates repeatedly and almost across the board. That's overwhelmingly the biggest driver of higher prices on the shelf. That's not to castigate the vendors; it's simply a statement of fact.

Why are these vendors' prices rising so rapidly? It's because vendors' own costs are soaring, primarily because prices from farmers, growers and importers have been increasing at unprecedented rates. The farmers themselves have been hit hard, facing massive cost increases for fertilizer, fuel and feed, among many others.

What we have experienced—or what we are experiencing still to some degree—is a unique confluence of events: war, extreme weather events and soaring fuel prices, all piling on top of the supply chain disruptions and labour shortages that arose during the pandemic.

The single biggest identifiable villain is Vladimir Putin's invasion, which has struck at the grain and fertilizer exports of two of the world's biggest producers, and that has had effects on the price of fuel. Ukraine and Russia are the most affected, of course, but this has driven up the global price for these commodities.

Grain is critical, not only for bread and staples such as pasta, cereals and cooking oils, but also as the base for the majority of products in the core aisles of grocery stores. Also, very importantly, grain serves as feed for most animals raised for meat or for producing eggs and dairy.

Simultaneously, scorching weather and drought have hammered the fruit- and vegetable-producing regions on which Canada most relies, especially in California but also in the Canadian and American west more generally. That impacts not only the fresh produce section but also canned, frozen and preserved vegetables and fruits, sauces, juices and anything else in which these are ingredients. Drought and extreme heat also impact the availability of pasture land on which to graze animals.

Dairy is supply-managed, so the wholesale price is set here in Canada. It rose by 10.9% cumulatively in 2022. Again, the government-established Canadian Dairy Commission has responded to rising costs at farm level for feed, fuel and fertilizer, which are then passed on first to processors and then to grocers.

I could also speak to the rising cost of packaging, shipping, the role of the declining Canadian dollar, which is becoming more significant, and the severe labour market shortage both here and abroad.

Dire though this confluence of events is, there are some signs that the pace of inflation could abate, with August likely having been the high point.

Grain is finally getting out of Ukraine, and fertilizer and grain out of Russia, under a United Nations-brokered deal, though there's still a major backlog to be cleared. Fuel costs, though still high, have receded by close to 30% since their peak a year ago. Cooling temperatures this fall could provide some relief to parched vegetable-, fruit- and grain-growing regions.

There's still uncertainty as to when exactly prices will stabilize and, of course, there are some big geopolitical and climatic risks. What's critical, both for industry and government, is to look at the whole picture, not just the surface, and to factor that into any policy approaches and commentary.

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

Now we'll hear from Messieurs Caron and Tougas.

5:05 p.m.

Martin Caron General President, Union des producteurs agricoles

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am Martin Caron, general president of the Union des producteurs agricoles. I am also a dairy producer and a field crop producer in Louiseville.

As you know, we are living in a historic inflationary period caused by a multitude of events and circumstances. These elements combined have created a crisis situation that is promoting a sharp rise in product prices. You have to go back to 1991 to find a higher annual growth rate in the consumer price index, or CPI, than in 2021.

When it comes to price changes, of all the products in the CPI, food has surely received the most attention. Yet food prices have changed in a very similar way to the overall CPI since the start of the pandemic. Indeed, food prices in Canada have increased by 13% since January 2020, while the total CPI has increased by 11.5%. Some items in the overall CPI have seen their prices rise faster than others, such as gasoline, whose price has increased by 48%.

For the agricultural sector, input prices rose 20% between the first quarter of 2020 and the first quarter of 2022, according to Statistics Canada's farm input price index.

Three of the major production inputs—feed, fertilizer and fuel—experienced price increases of 100%, 60% and 50%, respectively, which is much higher than the CPI. Let's also not forget that, for eastern Canada, which is more dependent on imported fertilizers, the 35% tariff on Russian fertilizers has not only increased the cost of fertilizers, but also made their availability more fragile. For horticultural products, the price of containers has also increased significantly.

For the Canadian agricultural sector, these increases represent $10 billion in additional expenses. The majority of these increases have occurred in recent years. This is unprecedented.

It is important to remember that the price of agricultural products is only a fraction of the price of food we find on grocery store shelves. For example, for every $1 spent in Quebec on beef, less than $0.38 goes back to the producer. For yogurt, only $0.13 of every dollar consumers spend goes back to dairy farmers.

Historically high input prices mean an unprecedented strain on farm cash flow, even for productions that operate in a more favourable market context.

Established farm businesses are not the only ones affected. Owing in part to their higher debt load, next-generation and start-up businesses are being hit hard by rising production costs.

The Bank of Canada's desire to curb inflation through interest rate increases is laudable, but for us, this policy will have the effect of replacing one problem with another.

Farm businesses have had to invest heavily in recent years to, among other things, comply with societal expectations regarding the environment and animal welfare. In addition, the value of farmland has more than tripled over the past 10 years. This has resulted in a doubling of the agricultural sector's debt load over the past few decades. Every one percentage point increase in interest rates ultimately generates approximately $1.2 billion in additional interest expenses for Canadian farm businesses, representing approximately 25% of the sector's total net income in 2021.

In this context, and given the critical nature of agriculture for food security, the government must act quickly to support our sector. Special assistance is needed to avoid a financial catastrophe among thousands of farm businesses. We stress the need to act quickly. Assistance could be modelled on the Canada emergency business account, which would make it possible to combine liquidity support with business profitability assistance. The government must also optimize the tools and programs already in place that adequately respond to the current context. For supply-managed productions, price adjustment mechanisms must be reviewed to ensure greater flexibility.

Inflation will have a negative effect on businesses' productivity and profitability. It will also affect their ability to invest in automation, robotization and new technologies. These solutions to labour shortages and climate change require very large investments, which inflation strongly discourages.

The one-time assistance and requested measures will help mitigate the financial impact on agricultural businesses, which must both deal with historic increases and secure the food supply of our population.

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

Members and witnesses, we are going to move into our first round of questions. The first round is six minutes of questions for each party. Just looking at the time already, the second round will also be evenly divided by the different parties. It will be about two minutes in the second round, so that will be a quick question and answer.

Starting our first round, we have the Conservatives up first, with MP Lawrence for six minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today to talk about a very serious issue.

Just to give some context early on, I will read from some of the parliamentary notes here about some of the work done by the Dalhousie University Agri-Food Analytics Lab, which shows that Canadian consumers are responding to higher food prices. According to the survey, up to 23.6% have cut back on the amount of food they purchase, 8.2% have changed their diet and 7% have even skipped meals. This is a very serious concern and a very big issue.

My first question will go to you, Mr. Littler. You went through some of the additional costs that are being pushed up through the supply chain and then ultimately being pushed on to the consumer. You didn't talk about any potential solutions there. In your estimation, Mr. Littler, are there any solutions to get costs back down?

5:10 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Public Affairs, Retail Council of Canada

Karl Littler

A lot of this is geopolitical, but there are some domestic solutions. Some of those are being focused on by the industry itself. I think some of those are more within the preserve of policy-makers like this committee.

Consumers are changing habits, including where they are purchasing food. We're seeing a greater push to discount stores. We're seeing a greater push with respect to bulk purchasing, where that's feasible. We're seeing some move to home brand, private label products. Certainly in their discount arms, grocers are focusing on core items in the grocery basket and trying to find the best prices they can offer those products at. That's certainly something we can—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you.

I'm going to just go through a couple of other options I might throw out there—and I appreciate your efforts—where government may have a direct role in perhaps reducing the cost.

I think throughout history it would be proven that when governments spend too much and tax too much, you usually get inflation. Given the fact that inflation is a large driver of this, if the government were able to reduce inflation.... For example, the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklem, said in response to one of my questions that one of the drivers of inflation would be the carbon tax.

Wouldn't it, in fact, help Canadians, and help you reduce the prices for your consumers, if the government didn't go ahead and triple the carbon tax this spring?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Public Affairs, Retail Council of Canada

Karl Littler

Well, I'm not an expert on the carbon tax per se, but there's no question that every input tax increase is having an impact. That's true with taxation. Obviously it's true in regulatory compliance.

Frankly, in the way that items are assessed for gender impact and for environmental impact, I think it is probably time for the government to return to putting things through an affordability prism and through a consumer prism—as it hasn't really since 1995—before policies are brought forward.

That's not to say that the Competition Bureau doesn't do great work or that there isn't an office of consumer affairs, but we have not had a minister with the name “Consumer and Corporate Affairs” in almost 30 years. That does speak, to some degree, to the fact that inflation has been in abeyance. It is probably time to bring those impacts back to the fore.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I actually think that's an excellent idea and one I think the committee should be considering. I think putting government regulations and taxation through an affordability lens makes a lot of sense, given the fact that food prices are going up by 10%.

On another related issue, once again—and I'm inclined to agree with what a lot of you said—the cost is being passed on from the increased inputs. The government also announced they were going to cut fertilizer usage by a third. We've seen that in Sri Lanka, which is probably the ultimate example of this, they cut fertilizer down to zero and their agricultural outputs have been reduced somewhere between 50% and 70%.

Reducing the access to fertilizer or making fertilizer more expensive—obviously we've seen the events in Ukraine, but this is a self-inflicted wound—would also increase the cost of food, wouldn't it?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Public Affairs, Retail Council of Canada

Karl Littler

Monsieur Caron is actually a farmer, so perhaps I'd defer to his expertise, but obviously, anything that is reducing supply and driving up cost is of concern, and it is a cumulative thing. There are all kinds of virtuous things that government might be doing otherwise, but the cumulative effect and also the affordability impact are things that have to be much more prominent.