Finance Committee on Oct. 19th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 62 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to the House order of reference adopted on Wednesday, June 22, 2022, the committee is meeting to discuss Bill C-228, an act to amend the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act and the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. With regard to interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. Members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Members, before we move on to the election of the vice-chair, on the collective behalf of the finance committee, we would like to thank and take this opportunity to pay our respects and tribute to our friend and former colleague, the late Honourable Bill Blaikie, our friend MP Daniel Blaikie's father. The speeches in the House today were truly moving. We're with you, Daniel, in honouring and celebrating your father today.

Also, members, I do recognize that during our last meeting we had to end abruptly, cutting short MP Blaikie's time, owing to House resource constraints. As a mutual moment of courtesy on our behalf, I'd like to allow MP Blaikie the two-plus minutes of his remaining time.

MP Blaikie, the floor is yours.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much for that, on both counts, Mr. Chair.

You may recall that, at that time, I moved a motion with respect to how to dispense with Bill C-228. It's a little bit stale, given that we're hearing from witnesses today—which is wonderful, and I'm very glad to have them here—but I wonder if I might have unanimous consent from the committee to replace that motion that was on the table with the following, and perhaps we could pass it swiftly: that the committee dedicate the meetings of October 24 and 26 to pre-budget consultation hearings and dispense with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-228 on Monday, October 31.

I'm happy to motivate that, if you'd like, Mr. Chair. I think it speaks for itself in the context of the last day's discussion. If there are any questions, I'm happy to answer them, but if folks around the table are comfortable with that, then we could perhaps proceed to the decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

I am looking around the room, and I'm seeing the nodding of heads. We have unanimous consent.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now, members, we're moving to the election of the vice-chair. We have a vacancy in the vice-chair position.

The clerk will now preside over the election of our new vice-chair.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Carine Grand-Jean]

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm honoured to nominate my friend, Jasraj Singh Hallan, for the vice-chair position.

[The Clerk]

It has been moved by Mr. Marty Morantz that Mr. Jasraj Singh Hallan be elected as the first vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Jasraj Singh Hallan elected first vice-chair of the committee.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Congratulations to the vice-chair, MP Hallan.

Would you like to say a few words? No. Okay.

Now, we are going to—

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to make the following motion regarding the committee's work on Bill C‑228...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

One moment. I'm not getting interpretation.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Can you hear me now, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

The clerk has just emailed you the motion I want to make. If you need time to study it and discuss it, just let me know, but I don't think it's a problem. The motion reads as follows:

That, for its study of Bill C‑228, in the interest of concision and efficiency, the committee consider all the evidence and documents gathered by the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology during the 2nd Session of the 43rd Parliament as part of its study of Bill C‑253.

You may recall that a bill similar to Bill C‑228 had been tabled and that the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology had studied this issue thoroughly. Our committee should consider everything that was done by the previous committee on Bill C‑253.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Is there any discussion?

Is there agreement on the motion that was put forward?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

Yes, MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Mr. Chair, perhaps you could indulge me here. I'm just wondering if we could move quickly, as I believe it's been agreed upon by all the parties, to approve Mr. Chambers' motion on the luxury tax. I think it's a bit of housekeeping that's been hanging out there for a while. I believe all the parties have agreed to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

I think Mr. Chambers had some amendments to the luxury tax. I'm looking to the members in terms of agreement.

Are members in agreement?

Yes, MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Chair, I believe it was amended. Are we able to read out what we have, just to make sure we are agreeing to what was amended? Is that okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Has everyone received it? Has it been distributed?

I do not have it before me yet.

Mr. Clerk, can you please read it?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

Okay. I will read it in English.

The motion states:

That, with regard to implementation of Part 4, the Select Luxury Items Tax Act of Bill C‑19, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures, the Department of Finance provide the following to the House of Commons Standing Committee of Finance:

On or before March 1st, 2023, the Department of Finance provide a detailed written “economic impact study” on the implementation of the Select Luxury Items Tax Act (“the tax”), including a breakdown of the expected impact on employment and expected tax revenue for each asset class. The aforementioned study should also provide an estimate on the total number of items (dollars and units) affected by the new tax (by asset class) compared to the previous three years.

On or before December 9th the Department of Finance provide a detailed written “progress report” on efforts by the Department of Finance to address issues with the implementation of the Select Luxury Items Tax Act—including a summary of discussions and issues raised by impacted sectors.

Additionally, by December 16th the Department of Finance appear before the House of Commons Standing Committee of Finance for one hour to discuss the implementation of Select Luxury Items Tax Act, which appearance should occur after the interim report has been tabled.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Members, I'm looking again for approval.

(Motion agreed to)

That is carried.

Now we'll move to our witnesses. We have until seven o'clock.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. From the Association of Canadian Pension Management, we have Andrea Boctor, partner and chair of pensions and benefits at Osler LLP; Ross Dunlop, executive vice-president, Ellement Consulting Group; and Ric Marrero, chief executive officer, Association of Canadian Pension Management.

From the Canadian Association of Retired Persons, we have Bill VanGorder, chief operating officer and chief policy officer. Welcome.

We also have Alex Gray, senior director, fiscal and financial services policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce; Michael Powell, president, Canadian Federation of Pensioners; Siobhán Vipond, executive vice-president, and Chris Roberts, director of social economic policy, Canadian Labour Congress; and Nicolas Lapierre, area coordinator, United Steelworkers.

Welcome to all our witnesses.

We will now have an opportunity to hear remarks from our witnesses.

The Association of Canadian Pension Management is on first, for five minutes.

[Ric Marrero, Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Pension Management]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for allowing us to get our point across. We will keep it very brief.

I've been with ACPM since 2012. I spent the last 30 years in national senior management in the charitable and private sectors.

We are a politically neutral, non-profit national organization. Our membership contains many of the largest DB plans in Canada. Our private and public sector members together manage plans totalling trillions of dollars, with millions of plan members.

I would like to introduce my volunteer colleagues.

Ross Dunlop is the executive vice-president of Ellement Consulting Group. Ross is a pension actuary and investment consultant who has, for over 30 years, provided advice to pension plan sponsors and trustees. He has experience in winding up pension plans, pension plan provision design, investment strategy design, and assisting clients in hiring and terminating investment managers. He is the past president of ACPM and has been an ACPM board member for over 10 years.

Andrea Boctor is a partner and the national chair of the pension and benefits group at Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLB. She has practised pension and benefit law for the past 20 years. Her practice has included all types of stakeholders, such as debtors, creditors, monitors, receivers and plan windup administrators appointed by pension regulators. She has taught pension law at Queen's University and pension insolvency law at the University of Toronto and Osgoode Professional Development. She is a past chair and current member of the ACPM federal council, which deals with federally regulated plans.

I would now like to turn it over to Ross Dunlop.

[Ross Dunlop, Executive Vice-President, Ellement Consulting Group, Association of Canadian Pension Management]

Thank you, Ric.

Good afternoon, everybody.

There is no other organization in Canada that has done more work promoting retirement security for plan members than ACPM, while at the same time creating an environment where plan sponsors continue to offer pension plans.

ACPM clearly understands the unfortunate situation when a plan sponsor fails and plan members might not receive 100% of their benefit entitlement. Providing secure benefits to plan members is something ACPM has been working on for decades.

ACPM believes that DB pension plans are very valuable benefits for plan members, but we need to recognize that employers choose voluntarily to create and support these plans. Pension plan coverage—particularly defined benefit—has declined in Canada fairly precipitously over the last number of years. Public sector DB plan membership in Canada—this is from StatsCan—was about 82% 20 years ago. It's 82% today. Twenty years ago, private sector DB plan membership was about 21%. Currently, it's around 9%. It's the 9% we're talking about today. That's the worry at ACPM: the deterioration of the 9%.

Our specific concerns relate to the fact that employers need credit and loans to operate, and that banks and bond holders will not lend, or charge significantly higher interest rates, if they are subordinate to pension plans. This will incent board CEOs and CFOs to terminate pension plans that are subject to this legislation. Even those employers who would never find themselves in a bankruptcy situation will be incented to terminate these plans and wind them up.

Although Bill C-228 has the admirable goal of giving priority to plan members in the event of a bankruptcy, we believe what will happen is that plans will be terminated. Bill C-228 would apply to very few plans, because those plans will have been wound up.

At this point, I'm going to hand things over to my colleague Andrea Boctor.