Evidence of meeting #7 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
2:30 p.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you.
Briefly, I would like to revisit the matter of the GIS clawback as a result of CERB payments.
My first question is for whichever official would like to respond.
Would the solution proposed by the Bloc Québécois—that is, treating the CERB like work income—require legislative changes? Does it have to be done through regulations? Could the CRA do it, itself, through a directive? Please keep your answer brief.
December 10th, 2021 / 2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
This program is run by ESDC. I believe it would require a legislative change, but I can't be 100% certain.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
I see.
What I gather is that, with Christmas two weeks away, seniors aren't going to get an answer as to whether they'll be able to make ends meet. They will remain in a financially vulnerable position.
My last question is about something Ms. Freeland said yesterday. According to her, on a technical level, the issue is a bit complicated to address as far as the system's capacity goes.
Can you elaborate on those technological challenges? In 2021, is there no way to find a solution for seniors whose benefits were clawed back? Is it not possible to consider treating the CERB as work income? Would the technology allow for that, so that all the affected seniors could qualify for a review based on their actual income?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Chair, I can give you a flavour of why there are technological challenges. The GIS determination was made after we received individuals' tax returns for 2020. That was done, we'll say, in June 2021. Individuals had started receiving their benefits. Entitlements had been determined.
Now, as far as a solution goes, if this is the policy intent, you'd need to isolate the impact of CERB and determine how that impacted the GIS and then figure out when you're going to give those amounts. Are you going to give them all at once to the extent that you're going to provide an offset? Who will that be given to, and what happens to individuals, for example, who may have received CERB and then paid back CERB a little bit later? We did have a lot of people who did pay back the CERB afterward.
There are all kinds of complex data issues, and you want to try to alleviate the situation rather than make it worse. Therefore, I would say that in moving forward, you need to be very careful to get it right.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
That is the time, Madam Larouche.
We are now moving to the NDP for two and a half minutes. Go ahead, Mr. Blaikie.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you very much.
How ready to go is the system to pay the Canada worker lockdown benefit if a region were to suddenly qualify? My understanding is that so far there are no regions that qualify, but if one were to qualify, how ready is that system to go and how will it start paying out individuals?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
The system is ready to go. Once the legislation is in place and royal assent is received, we probably could activate the system within approximately 24 hours.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
There's an attestation, I guess, in that system as well. People will make certain attestations about their income and their job situation.
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
That's correct. There's an attestation and, of course, there are also checks. For example, the areas of lockdown would be identified—
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Sure.
I'm wondering. In that application, would they identify what kind of job they have, what their work is and who their employer is? Would they include that information anywhere in the application?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Not that I believe.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Okay.
Would it be possible for them to do that? Let's say they had a multiple-choice list that just asked, “Do you work in this industry or in that industry?” Is this something that could be added?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Technologically, it would be possible. The information I guess could be used for statistical purposes. I—
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
For instance, if the multiple-choice list corresponded to all of the industries listed in part 1 of the bill—tourism, hospitality, arts and culture.... I forget how many letter items there are; I think they're “A” through “M” or “A” through “O”. They then could attest that they work in one of those affected industries and receive the Canada worker lockdown benefit even if there weren't a lockdown order, say, if the legislation were amended so they could do such a thing. That would be technologically possible if it were incorporated into the attestation. I think that's consistent with your previous answer. Am I wrong?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I have to confess that I don't.... Could you just explain to me the goal you're trying to achieve? I'd be happy to try to give you an answer—
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Sure. The bill recognizes that there are a number of industries that are in distress, notwithstanding whether there's a lockdown order in effect in a particular area that people would be working in, a geographical area. Right?
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
They're listed in part 1. Now, if those industries are in distress, then self-employed workers, for instance, might need income assistance, whether there's a lockdown order or not. In fact, the government says they will. That's why they're making the wage subsidy available for workers in those industries.
I'm just wondering. If people were to attest that they work in one of those industries and derive their employment income from one of those industries, the Canada worker lockdown benefit could then be flowed to them regardless of the fact that there's a lockdown order.
Now, I respect that the legislation is not currently worded that way—
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
—but if it were, would it be technologically possible to implement?
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
It would be technologically possible to ask for the information—
