Finance Committee on Dec. 13th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's your time, Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We'll now move to the Bloc and Monsieur Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Minister Rodriguez. I also want to thank your esteemed colleagues. As my colleague said earlier, they do an excellent job at the Department of Canadian Heritage. We always greatly appreciate your efforts. We hear nothing but good things about you.

Minister Rodriguez, you spoke earlier about the programs that the government has implemented to assist the cultural sector since the start of the pandemic. Last year, at the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, we conducted a study to understand how the pandemic was affecting the cultural community in particular. The study found that the programs in place were helping the cultural community, but that the money wasn't getting to the self‑employed workers and the artists. In other words, the industry, production companies and theatres were receiving assistance, but the artists, self‑employed workers and technicians weren't obtaining any of the money and assistance that they needed.

As you know, the figures are quite alarming, and we're noticing this more and more. That's why we specifically asked for the continuation of assistance programs such as the Canada recovery benefit, or CRB, for the hardest‑hit sectors, including the cultural sector. Obviously, we saw that self‑employed workers in the cultural sector aren't covered by Bill C‑2. I have a question for you, Minister Rodriguez, but it could also be addressed to the deputy minister.

When did you find out that the cultural sector, artists and self‑employed cultural workers wouldn't be protected by Bill C‑2?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We've always known that there was a significant need in the cultural sector. However, as you already know, Mr. Champoux, we sometimes help artists through various programs such as the Canada emergency wage subsidy, or CEWS, because these programs enable them to keep their jobs.

You rightly referred to self‑employed workers. We'll help them by creating a program to supplement Bill C‑2. This bill will help organizations, cultural businesses and so on. However, at the same time, we don't need a bill to implement our plan, because we'll use existing programs. We're working with the Union des artistes, or UDA, and others to quickly put together a program that will help self‑employed workers by giving them money directly.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm glad you brought that up because last week, at this committee, we heard from the president of the Fondation des artistes, Mr. Laperrière. The next day, we also met with the president of the UDA, Ms. Prégent. They each spoke about the urgent needs.

I want to provide a clear picture of the current state of affairs in the cultural sector. Ms. Prégent testified that it was customary, two or three times in any given year, for the executive committee to consider a request from an artist who wanted to withdraw money from their RRSP, which is funded by their UDA fee. At this time, the executive committee is looking at two or three requests at each meeting, or every two weeks. It's awful to see that self‑employed workers must use funds from their pension, which they build over the course of their career. That's the current state of affairs.

Last week, we spoke about what the Quebec department of culture and communications has done through the Fondation des artistes. It has given funding to the foundation to help artists in need. The foundation also came to talk about its accountability mechanism, reliability and transparency.

Are you recommending a model that mirrors what Quebec has done to support artists?

If not, would you consider this type of model?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Champoux.

I met with UDA representatives last week. I believe it was on Friday. We had an hour‑long discussion about this specific issue. We're exploring the model. It's important to work with organizations such as the UDA, and especially with that organization, given its experience in this area, on the Quebec government side. I had a long discussion with Ms. Prégent. Several people whom you know well were at that meeting. We looked at the model implemented in Quebec.

We'll certainly continue to work with all these people, as well as with others, obviously, since it's a pan‑Canadian program, to explore different ways to make sure that the money goes directly to self‑employed workers, because they know these workers very well. They work with these workers every day. We're certainly exploring this.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Another issue has come up again, although it isn't necessarily part of the urgent program that you'll be implementing. I would like to emphasize the word “urgent,” a somewhat editorial statement, to say that we must hurry.

Self‑employed cultural workers, who are often artists, aren't eligible for employment insurance. That's why we're hearing more and more in the cultural community, in the community of artists and performing arts workers, that there may be a need for a sustainable system, a permanent assistance program to compensate for the lack of employment insurance eligibility.

Could there be some type of program for artists going through a slump?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Good question. It should also be addressed to my colleague, Ms. Qualtrough, since there are obviously discussions on employment insurance reform.

Certainly, given their lifestyle and work, these people are more vulnerable to fluctuations. We're aware of this and we must be there for them. We must look at the different mechanisms. However, the mechanism that interests us at this time is the one specifically identified in our platform: temporary and transitional assistance for self‑employed workers.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Monsieur Champoux. That's your time.

We will move to Ms. Blaney of the NDP.

Welcome, Ms. Blaney. You have six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the minister and his officials for being here today to talk about this very important issue.

I'd like to follow up a bit on what my former colleague spoke about. We know that the arts, culture and heritage sector represents about 673,000 jobs in the Canadian economy. They're important jobs. The government has also really made it clear that Bill C-2 is the last set of pandemic income supports they will be offering.

We know that the arts and culture sector is one of the last to recover. Do you know around how many arts and culture workers were still using the Canadian recovery benefit on October 23?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We know, as you mentioned, that before the pandemic, there were about 678,000 workers. It went down to about 606,000 workers, so about 70,000 workers are left. Some of them, though, can benefit from the different programs in Bill C-2, and some of them are independent.

I'm talking about self‑employed workers.

What we're doing within Canadian Heritage is to help those independent workers, but to answer your question, 70,000 jobs were not recuperated.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay.

We know that the CRB will be replaced by the Canadian worker lockdown benefit. However, a key difference in the programs is that, to qualify for the CWLB, a region needs to be in lockdown as outlined by the criteria in the legislation. Do you know of any region in the country where workers, including workers from the arts and culture sector, qualify for retroactive payment—basically, from October 24 to the present day—under the CWLB?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I don't have an answer to that question. I can tell you that the program we're working on at this moment is independent of the region, independent of whether you're in lockdown or not. At Canadian Heritage we're putting in place a transitional program to help gig workers, to help self-employed workers. That can be in any region whether it is in lockdown or not.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

If you don't have the specific answer to the question today, is there any way we could get information about that in the future, specifically around that backlog and going back to see if it's paid retroactively?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, so we have a commitment.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, of course.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I hear what you're saying, but I see a lot of gaps in the service. I'm really worried about what that impact will be on this particular arts, culture and heritage sector.

Could you talk to the committee about how your department was consulted about the structure of income supports in Bill C-2 in order to best serve the workers in this particular industry?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We had many discussions with finance, of course, to make sure that the cultural sector would be included. This is why associations, groups and cultural businesses will have access, as you know, to what's provided by Bill C-2—the wage subsidy to 75%, the rent subsidy and in any other event, in case of lockdowns, the rest of Bill C-2.

We're going one step further internally. You don't need legislation for that. We have the programs to do it. We will go one step further to make sure that we're there for our independent workers.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I hear that you're going to go one step further, hopefully, but we know there are workers in the arts and culture sector who were on the CRB who are now cut off. How are they expected to live? Right now it seems like you're having some ideas and plans about what that's going to be like, but the impact is today and those workers today are being impacted.

I believe, and I think the whole of the NDP agrees, that these are not people who do not want to work. It's the fact that they work in an industry that is very slow to recover, and they are doing the best they can. They offer important services to our society, and people want to make sure they are still there when COVID is over.

How are they expected to live during the interim if they can't access any of those programs anymore and if you're still, as a department, in a place of thinking about it? What do we offer to those folks right now who are left in a huge financial lurch?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We're not just thinking about it. We're actively working on it. It's just that I cannot announce it today, but it's going to come very soon because as you said these people are doing extraordinary things.

I said it before that, during the pandemic, they have made us laugh, sometimes cry and reflect all the time. I always say to think of one day, just one day, without music, television, books, papers—everything. It would be freaking boring.

We have always been there for them, and we will be there for them.