Finance Committee on Dec. 13th, 2021

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, but it still doesn't answer the question. How do those people survive right now when they're waiting for this announcement? How long will they have to wait for this announcement, because financially they're struggling right now?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We're moving quickly, but through Bill C-2 you also have money that is going to the organizations and cultural businesses so that they will be able to keep those people. That is touching a lot of people in the cultural industry. For those who are not touched by this, there is the program that we're talking about that is coming very soon.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Blaney, that's your time.

Minister, we are moving into round two. We are going to start off with the Conservatives for five minutes.

Mr. McLean, you have the floor.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Rodriguez, welcome to the finance committee.

The first question I have is about the accountability measures in this legislation we're talking about in relation to the CERB benefits that have gone out already being about 80% more than originally budgeted by the government.

We have an extension here of seven months, allegedly $7.4 billion in extra spending, but that extension can actually be nine months. Let's call it nine and change of excess spending. That's more spending that we're going to be doing to address these matters without any accountability mechanisms built around them and, indeed, no definitions around some of the retrospective applications and how they're going to be applied here.

In addition, you have the extension of time this program is available until 2026, so an extra two years. That's allegedly seven months more of benefits, but two years more of applicability.

Can you see that one might question why there's a lack of accountability in the definitions in this legislation?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm sure those are some of the things that you discussed with the finance minister, because as heritage minister I can tell you that we know the cultural industries we're working with. We know the organizations that are receiving the money. We have this tradition of working with them and also with the mechanisms that exist for accountability, so I don't see it as a problem for the cultural sector at all.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

This bill has been rushed here. Let's accept that. You are the previous government House leader. Tell us how government makes the decision to hold Parliament back for months and then arrives with legislation this important to the support it's supposed to give to key industries, hoping it can push it through Parliament and this committee with very little time to look at it and address how it actually can better serve the constituent parts it needs to meet. Tell us about the political calculus versus the accountability here.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I don't think there's political strategy here. I think that, because of the pandemic, we had to react quickly quite often. You mentioned that I was House leader. I've negotiated things and urgent matters with Ms. Bergen, with Mr. Deltell, and the same thing with Mr. Therrien and with Peter Julian, and others.

This is, in a way, the new reality, where you're in a pandemic and you sometimes have to create programs very quickly that didn't exist before and maybe won't exist tomorrow. That's what we're in.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I have one final question for you, so I might let you off a little early here.

Given all the CERB fraud and benefit fraud we've seen, and extensive allegations of advisers abetting those activities, would you support an investigation of COVID relief payments in parts of the country where the payouts from the pandemic programming appear to be relatively extensive?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

When the government puts those programs in place, they also put the accountability mechanisms in place. Doing something illegal is something illegal, and there are laws for that. If someone did something that was wrong, then justice is there and that person should pay the price. For the rest, I think the government was extremely careful throughout the whole process to make sure that there was accountability for what we were doing, even if sometimes we had to do things fast, collectively.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Would you support the investigation in parts of the country—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I don't think it's up to me to answer that question. What I'm saying is that, if someone did something wrong, you go after that person.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

But when it appears there's something going wrong based on where the payments have gone out disproportionately, would you support looking into that more thoroughly?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I can't comment on appearances or hypotheses or things like that, so that's my answer.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. McLean.

We are moving to the Liberals, and we have Mr. Baker for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Rodriguez, for joining us today to answer our questions.

Before I ask my important question, I want to make a few comments about what my Conservative colleague just said.

I heard Mr. McLean lamenting once again at the committee that the government spent too much money in supporting Canadians, in support programs for Canadians. I can't help remind and underline, for all colleagues and for the people watching at home, a few things. One is that this pandemic has been unpredictable. The government has committed to be there for Canadians, to be there for businesses and to support them during a global pandemic, during a crisis. I think we've done what was required to have Canadians' backs.

The other thing is that I want to remind all colleagues that Mr. McLean and his colleagues voted for this funding. They voted for the funding that provided the support programs for Canadians. Once again, his question, just like last week's, suggests that the Conservatives believe—it doesn't suggest; it indicates clearly Conservatives believe—that the government spent too much to support Canadians and, had the Conservatives been in power, they would have not supported Canadians through this crisis.

That said, I'll now ask you my question, Minister Rodriguez.

What have you heard from the sector representatives and other organizations involved about the support programs in place since the start of the pandemic? Have these people contributed to the development of the programs?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Baker.

We had many discussions with cultural sector representatives before, during and after the programs were implemented. In general, we were told that these programs were absolutely essential because they gave businesses the chance to keep people employed, work on recovery or stay open.

When you ask people to stay home, to not get together and to stay away from each other, the hardest‑hit sector is inevitably the performing arts. This means plays and performances. We implemented concrete measures to help all these people. Overall, we're hearing that these measures have helped keep people employed or get people through this very challenging time. We'll continue to help them.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Have they contributed to the development of these programs?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, and I think that's one of the most important things.

Canadian Heritage is known for several things. However, one of the most important things is that it conducts many consultations. It does so brilliantly.

The employees know their files well. That said, no one in the department claims to know the situation better than the people who make their living from music or writing, for example. The department's employees ask people in the arts and culture sector about their day‑to‑day lives, and the employees work with these people by drawing on their expertise to develop the best possible programs for them.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

While the pandemic isn't over yet, it's encouraging to see that we can begin to focus more on recovery, if I may say so. You said that the government will fulfill an election promise by holding an arts and culture summit early next year.

Why are you holding this summit now and what do you hope to accomplish?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's a very good question.

Canadian Heritage has been holding consultations throughout the pandemic. I don't want this summit to be seen as another consultation, because we have consulted before and we continue to consult. This two‑day summit will follow a tour that I am doing as minister in different regions. This two‑day summit will be used to share our solutions.

The world has changed completely, and in many cases this change is permanent. Some things will never go back to the way they were. The cultural sector has been significantly affected. We will find out which changes are temporary and can be adapted to quickly, and which are permanent structural changes. We will determine how we can together look at the cultural sector in the medium and long term.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Now we'll move on to the Bloc and Monsieur Champoux again.