Finance Committee on Dec. 13th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order. I hope everybody is doing well and wasn't affected too much by the windstorm over the weekend in this area.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the House of Commons order of reference adopted on December 2, 2021, the committee is meeting on Bill C-2, an act to provide further support in response to COVID-19.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today's meeting is also taking place in a webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. The staff will be non-active participants and can, therefore, only view the meeting in gallery view.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind all participants at this meeting that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain a two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when you are seated. You must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided at the room entrance. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have a choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those who are in the room, your microphone will be controlled as it normally is by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind everyone that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members whether they're participating virtually or in person.

It is now my pleasure to welcome our minister. Minister Rodriguez is with us here today. He is accompanied by Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, and David Dendooven, assistant deputy minister of strategic policy, planning and corporate affairs.

Minister and officials, we thank you very much for making yourselves available to the finance committee.

Minister Rodriguez, you now have the floor for your opening remarks.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members and colleagues.

First, congratulations on being elected and on being appointed to this important committee. I also want to thank you for inviting us to appear today to discuss our government's support for the cultural sector during the pandemic.

The hundreds of thousands of workers in the sector, including 158,000 professional artists, are vital to our economy and society. Our government has known this for a long time. We've always been there for them, and we'll always support our arts and culture sector and our heritage.

To understand the scope of all that has been accomplished, you must think back a bit to 2015. At that time, the cultural sector had just gone through a decade of budget cuts, and we said enough was enough. That's basically what we told Canadians. Under a Liberal government, our culture and our languages would be protected from now on. That's what we've done. As soon as we were elected in 2015, in the 2016 budget, we started to reverse the budget cuts.

One of the first things we did was to reinvest $675 million in CBC/Radio-Canada. That same year, we announced the largest increase in history to the budget of the Canada Council for the Arts. We also invested in Telefilm and the Canada Media Fund. I could go on and on, Mr. Chair, but long story short, we made the biggest reinvestment in our culture in the history of our country.

When Canada began to feel the full impacts of COVID-19 in March 2020, the culture and heritage sectors were among the first and hardest hit. Many in the creative industry found themselves with little or, quite often, zero income.

We immediately understood that we had to help the cultural sector quickly. Time was of the essence and there wasn't a moment to spare.

I would now like to take the time to thank all the employees of Canadian Heritage and its portfolio agencies. Despite the pandemic and its challenges, they were able to quickly respond to the urgency of the situation.

We responded right away with a $500-million emergency support fund for cultural, heritage and sports organizations. It was delivered in record time and protected many jobs. The results speak for themselves: 77% of people said it helped them stay in business, and 95% of them were satisfied with the speed of the program.

The Liberal team has always been an ally of the cultural sector. We said that we would reinvest, and we did. We said that we wouldn't leave anyone behind during the pandemic, and we kept our word. Now we're telling people that we'll be there to help them hang on until the economy fully recovers, because this hasn't happened yet. People in the cultural community across the country know that they can count on us.

It should be noted that, as a result of the plan implemented by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, our recovery is very strong. However, the recovery isn't equal for everyone. Not everyone is benefiting from it in the same way. I'm thinking in particular of self‑employed workers in the cultural sector.

Even though most Canadians have acted responsibly by getting vaccinated and taking the necessary precautions, several sectors of the industry will need time to return to pre‑pandemic levels. There's still a gap.

That's why, in the 2021 budget, we made a historic investment of $1.93 billion to help the arts and culture sector join the recovery. I think that's important.

We've created several emergency assistance programs to support our creators, our festivals and our various institutions.

Mr. Chair, once again, I could go on and on, but I don't think you want that.

Let me focus on what's ahead of us.

On January 31 and February 1, we'll hold a summit on the recovery of the arts and culture sectors. During this summit, we'll focus on medium‑term and longer‑term solutions and priorities.

We're working with the Deputy Prime Minister on a key commitment in the Liberal plan presented to Canadians during the campaign.

We said that we would create a transitional program tailored to self‑employed and independent workers in the industry. That's what we'll do.

We're currently working with artist associations, guilds, unions and all sector organizations to create the program as quickly as possible.

They're telling us—and I think they also told the committee—that this step is extremely important and necessary. They want it done quickly, but more importantly, they want it done right. This is my top priority at this time.

I'm relieved to hear my colleagues talk about this issue. During the election campaign, the Liberals were the only ones who talked about transitional support for self‑employed workers in the sector. I must say that I was concerned.

Today, I'm pleased to know that my colleagues are asking the government to fulfill its own commitment. I can tell you that we'll do just that. This shows that we aren't alone. This is a good move for our workers and our culture.

I want to thank all my colleagues for their enthusiasm and support for our plans to help the cultural sector, our artists and our craftspeople.

In closing, I consider it important to take concrete steps and to act together.

In Bill C-2, there are very important measures for our arts and culture sector. For the hardest-hit organizations and for the people in the cultural sector, these are essential measures to help them pay up to 75% of wages and rent. This includes live performances and exhibits, museums, heritage sites, cinemas, festivals and others. Bill C-2 also contains measures that will help these organizations hire more people.

Our creators need it. They need the support provided in this bill right now. I know my colleagues from all parties are serious about supporting workers in the cultural sector, and I'm counting on them to make sure that Bill C-2 moves forward without any further delay.

On behalf of all our workers, everyone involved in culture, I'd like to ask my colleagues to quickly pass Bill C‑2.

These people were there for us during the pandemic. They made us laugh, they sometimes made us cry, and they often made us think. We've been there for them too. Now it's time to take the next step together.

I will now take your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much, Minister Rodriguez.

This is a vital sector for the economy and for our country. I know the members are looking forward to asking you questions, based on your remarks and on the ministry.

We are going to start our first round with the Conservatives. I believe it will be Mr. Nater who will be up for six minutes.

Mr. Nater, I know that you have probably subbed in or have been on this committee before, but as we get to the six minutes, I will give you a marker so that you'll know you have about 30 seconds left in your time.

Thank you.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us this morning. It's great to see you at this committee. Hopefully, you'll be at our heritage committee before too long. We would welcome the opportunity to see you there as well.

I want to start by following up on the emergency support fund for cultural and sport organizations. This was done very quickly, obviously, due to the dire situation of the pandemic. A lot of the funding went through the Canada Council for the Arts. I'm curious to know what safeguards are in place, what accountability mechanisms are in place and whether the department has engaged any internal or external review of that funding to ensure it's meeting the goals and objectives that were set out in the program.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Nater.

You're right. We did move very quickly. Right at the beginning, we had our first $500 million, then another $281 million through the fall economic statement and then the budget of 2021. Some of that was provided directly through Canadian Heritage and some, as you said, through the Canada Council for the Arts, which is an organization that we're used to working with. It's part of our organization so it's natural for us to work with them, and there are internal mechanisms, as we work with them, to follow the funding and the money.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Would you be able to share with the committee those mechanisms, those safeguards you have in place, so that we, as a committee, and other committees can be assured that the funding has gone where it's expected to go and that it has achieved its—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Absolutely, with pleasure.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay. We'll follow up on that off-line.

There certainly has been a lot of talk within the cultural and arts industry about the former Bill C-10 and your government's plan to reintroduce this at some point in the future. Originally, it was stated that it would be within the first 100 days. I'm curious to know if that is still the timeline and whether your government plans to table this legislation within the first 100 days of this Parliament.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

As you know, it is a priority for the government. We mentioned it during the campaign, and we maintain that as a priority.

As you know, Mr. Nater, that law has not changed since the beginning of.... I still had black hair when we tabled and adopted that bill. A lot of us will remember that we would go to Blockbuster to rent a VHS cassette, which probably most of the time we would bring back too late and we'd pay a penalty on it. That was what happened at the time.

We have to modernize that because there are different systems, and we want to have one system in place that is fair for our Canadian broadcasters and also for the web giants—one system for all. What we're saying to the web giants is that if they participate in the system, they will contribute to the system. Yes, we will quickly bring forward a bill on broadcasting.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Within the first 100 days...?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It will be very quickly.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Minister. I do have to say that I probably still have late fees with Blockbuster that I haven't paid since high school, so I may singlehandedly be responsible for their downfall.

As you mention, and rightfully so, this hasn't been updated in some time. One of the challenges and concerns we've heard from digital first creators is that they weren't properly consulted on the first Bill C-10. We've heard that those primarily online, those primarily digital, were not consulted and were not brought into the process early enough—or at all—during the first process.

Would you commit to ensuring that digital first creators are part of that consultation, part of that development process, so that the new Bill C-10 doesn't leave out those people, those creators who are primarily online and digital?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's a very important point, and we are consulting very broadly. We are consulting people who, at the time, were opposed to that version of the bill. We're taking all of that into consideration.

Because it's such a priority, it has been a priority for me to be consulting since day one. I don't even know how many people I have consulted, but they're from all sides. It's very important, because that helps us understand exactly what is going on and how we can work on and table that new bill, but again, I'm sure you'll agree that it's a priority to modernize it. A lot of it has not been touched for 40 years.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Yes. I was probably in elementary school when it was last reviewed.

To that end, and again, recognizing that when it was originally created and when the Broadcasting Act was last reviewed, YouTube and TikTok and none of these entities existed, there is a reality that times are changing. For the user-generated content side of things, obviously in the first iteration of Bill C-10, prior to committee, there was a clear exclusion for user-generated content. It was excluded. Within the committee process, proposed section 4.1 was amended. It was taken out so that protection for user-generated content was excluded. That obviously created a lot of concern within the community.

Would you commit to ensuring that, in the new Bill C-10, user-generated content from those people who are uploading their videos directly to a platform—I don't want to mention any particular platforms, but we all know the main platforms—would be excluded?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You will have to wait until the bill is tabled later to know the details of the bill. What I can tell you is that it's coming soon and it's going to be a very good bill. I'm sure you will be satisfied with many sections if not all of the bill. Again, it's so important. It's for our creators. It's for the people who tell our own Canadian stories. We have to modernize it because the rules have changed. We watch television and TV series on this. Before it was a bit different. Television was a bit bigger and things were a bit more complicated. We have to adapt to that, and I think the changes we want to make to the Broadcasting Act are going to reflect the 2021 reality.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Nater. That's your time.

We are moving to the Liberals and Ms. Dzerowicz for six minutes.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to warmly welcome you, Minister. I also want to welcome your officials and thank them from the bottom of our hearts for their extraordinary work over the last couple of years. We know how hard you've worked and we've been very appreciative of the supports you provided to the artists and to the cultural sector.

You mentioned, Minister, that we made a platform commitment around transitional support for the COVID program. I want to read it out for everyone, because I think it's important:

Implement a COVID-19 transitional support program to provide emergency relief to out-of-work artists, craftspeople, creators, and authors who are primarily self-employed or independent contractors.

I wanted to read that out because it's important for us to indicate that it was actually in our platform, that we've made a commitment to fulfill that and that we were the only ones to actually go out and do that.

Minister, I know you've indicated that you have started engaging with stakeholders on fulfilling this commitment. I've already had two round tables with my artists, and most of them are very grassroots. I wonder, Minister, if you could maybe talk a little more about what your process will be in engaging with the arts community regarding these ongoing emergency supports.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you very much for the question. You're right that we have been engaging with them, and it's so important to engage with them. Who am I to say, “Okay, this is exactly what you need”? They know better than we do what they need and what they're going through.

As I said, we've been there from day one, from 2015 to the beginning of the pandemic—when we came in with different programs—and then, in budget 2021, with almost $2 billion. Even after all of that support, there are some people—mainly in the gig industry, the travailleurs autonomes—who are still suffering, people who have no more venues where they can sing and play and do what they do best. We need that transitional program. We promised it in the platform.

I've been consulting and I have here a list of people. I don't even know how many people there are, but I have been working with them. I'm thinking of my friends from the Bloc. We also met with the UDA and different organizations in Quebec. We met with ACTRA. We met with the Creators Coalition and so many others.

We want to make sure we work with these foundations, guilds and unions, so that we are able to send the money directly to the people who need it.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I appreciate your response. I would also encourage you to make sure you're meeting with many of the grassroots organizations across the country as well. In my riding we have tiny theatres, dance companies and symphonies, and all of them are extraordinary. Often their voices are not necessarily represented by the largest groups. I hope I can get your commitment to also engage with them, Minister.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Absolutely. I've been to your riding a few times. I had the chance to be invited by you when I was the minister of heritage—in my first phase.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

We're already planning your next trip, Minister.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I will go there with pleasure.

You're right. Sometimes in smaller organizations they do things that are absolutely incredible in small venues. Again, I was speaking with my colleagues from the Bloc about a place where we helped finance the lighting system. There are 80 seats in that place, but it has a huge impact on the whole region.

Yes, we'll be consulting with them.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

I was really pleased when you highlighted in your opening remarks that Bill C-2 already has a lot of support for artists and those in the cultural sector. It was important for you to point that out, because when we have these debates in the House, people often forget that there is actually quite a bit of support there.

I have a question for you. Why do you think it's important to have so many different funding streams for arts and culture, and how have we seen these programs meeting the needs of workers and organizations?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for the question.

We've seen it right from the start in helping to maintain jobs. For example, what Bill C-2 is doing is still helping those industries with the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy. This applies to the cultural sector, one of the sectors that was the most hit by the pandemic. When you think about it, after the tourism sector, I think it's the cultural sector that's been the hardest hit. It's there, through those programs, to help the organizations and associations.

What we're also trying to do directly through my department is to help the self-employed through direct funding. This is what we're working on at this moment with the foundations, guilds and unions.