Finance Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

On that point of order....

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

—so that's a fair point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Just one second, MP Lawrence.

Just to bring everyone back to focus again, we are now debating the amendment to the motion of MP Blaikie. I'll read it again:

That the Minister of Finance be invited to be here for two hours on the bill and that this appearance be scheduled on or before May 18, 2023.

I think the last we left off with MP Perkins, he was at about mile seven of this marathon.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'm sorry. I just wanted to respond to that point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

The member rightfully brought up the Liberal convention, which is going on right now. I'd like to congratulate Terry Beech as well as Sophie Chatel for speaking. I don't know what was wrong with Yvan and Heath, or Peter, but I'm sure missing the Prime Minister's talk won't....

I'm sure you'll get cabinet eventually.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm delighted you're so interested in the Liberal convention. You should all be there, joining in on all the fun.

I feel there's an in-the-closet Liberal in MP Perkins, with all he knows about the convention.

Go ahead, MP Perkins. You may continue....

There's a point of order from MP Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in response to that last point of order by MP Lawrence, I think I should get into cabinet just for listening to MP Perkins for the last few hours.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Good one, MP Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Let it be known that the Conservatives agree.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You know, I don't know if that—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Chair, I think it may be a vast improvement over some of the folks who are there now. I appreciate that. I would really, really love to have my colleague MP Chatel in there as well. Perhaps a glass of wine at the Shaw Centre would be fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Perkins, we're all listening. I'm not sure if those were compliments or not, but you may continue.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I appreciate the question about how this relates to the amendment posed by MP Blaikie, which is about ministerial accountability. That's really what we're talking about here.

I think it is pertinent, when you talk about ministerial accountability, to talk about the mandate letter of accountability that the Prime Minister gave the ministers upon their being sworn into cabinet.

I read only the first two lines of the Minister of Finance's, but I think I understand the question about how the Minister of Fisheries relates to this, and it's a fair question. The fair question is that the minister, as well as others, has the same accountability—just to make sure we understand how she works—because Minister Freeland's letter says she must work closely with her opposition critics.

In fact, it says, “I expect you to maintain constructive relationships with your Opposition Critics....” That does, I think, mean having conversations with them. Minister Champagne is a very talkative fellow. I generally talk to him almost every day. He reaches out—he's a fine fellow—but with Minister Murray, in my role as critic—her letter says the same thing. It says, “I expect you to maintain constructive relationships with your Opposition Critics.”

In that spirit, I asked her if she would consider solving this problem, because where growing lawlessness happens, you have a problem of accountability, which is what this is all about. Without accountability, without the law being followed, you have anarchy.

I gave the minister her chances to do that. I gave her months and months and months and months and, ultimately, after I wrote letters and made inquiries and tried to do it in as collegial a way possible—as the Prime Minister's letter says we should all do—she said no, and the result of that, of course, is growing and growing lawlessness and poaching throughout this.

It's gotten really sad and difficult for people who work in the fishing community, who can no longer earn a living while others, who are essentially committing crimes under the law, are allowed to get away with it.

I got a letter today—actually it's dated yesterday, May 2—from a constituent of mine who lives just outside of the largest town in my riding. The largest town in my riding is Bridgewater, but she lives outside of it, and she writes:

“Dear MP Rick Perkins, I am writing to express my grave concern regarding the recent past and present state of the elver fishery in my local area.”

This goes to accountability, which is what we're trying to get at. I certainly hope that when the Minister of Finance accepts our invitation, I can ask her why the government continues to finance, in this budget bill, the department to the level it does—it has grown 63% in budget and grown by 5,000 people—and how that's improved it.

I'll tell you what: Listen to what this says. It's what I'd like to ask her about and the reason Mr. Blaikie's amendment is so important. She goes on to say:

“I am writing to express my grave concern regarding the recent past and present state of the elver fishery in my local area and throughout the province. Too often, government decisions are made without adequate forethought of the effect on ordinary citizens.”

It's really important that we listen more to what our constituents say, because this right here captures the whole essence of what we're dealing with on so many issues with regard to this budget. She continues as follows:

“Too often, government decisions are made without adequate forethought of the effect on ordinary citizens. I have lived at my residence since 1990 and purchased the property next to my residence along” —I won't say the road in the community— “early in 2002. There was no evidence of any fishery taking place in my community other than occasional recreational fishing by various local residents for trout until late March of 2014 when I spotted people with flashlights on my property by the brook late at night and discovered trap nets in the brook the next morning. Since that time, every spring, my sleep has been disrupted by the lights of those fishing, the noise of their vehicles departing and the feeling that my privacy has truly been invaded by strangers.”

I would add that they're not strangers; they're criminals because they don't have a licence to fish.

I ask you to think—she's asking me, so on her behalf I'm asking all committee members in considering this budget and accountability to think—about how you would feel about strangers on your property at night. I cannot imagine that you would be comfortable with it.

The letter continues: "I have spoken with many property owners about it, and all have said they would be upset by such activity. My ex-spouse and I did ask the fishers not to use our property and not to put a trap-net in the area which we use as a place to launch our small watercraft. Our request was not respected. After my spouse and I separated, I was living alone. I feel increasingly vulnerable with strangers using the property and upset that I could not freely launch a small watercraft from my property as I had done over the decade prior. I contacted DFO and was told—"

This is important, because this budget allocates money to DFO. It claims, as the minister has in the House of Commons on the issue of accountability, that they've doubled the patrols during this period. But this is what people on the ground are saying who are living it, not people from Vancouver Quadra.

She continued, "I contacted DFO and was told that those fishing did not have a legal licence to do so. I was warned by DFO that the fishers were potentially dangerous individuals and that I should not confront them myself."

So DFO has known this for a long time. I raised this as an accountability issue with the minister in November 2021. Again, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance why she has allowed this to happen with her colleague the Minister of Fisheries. That is what the mandate letter says: They are collectively responsible as a cabinet for the decisions that each other makes. That means the Minister of Finance is as responsible for this situation as any other minister, including the Prime Minister.

Her letter continued, "I contacted the RCMP to find out what my rights were as a property owner. I was told that it was within my right to put up fencing and a No Trespassing sign and that I was not required to allow the fishers to tie nets to trees on my property. I did put up a fence and signs and put a boat in my boat-watch area, but my boat was moved and a net was put in, which blocked my ability to access the water from my own property. On April 15, 2023, a few short days ago, I learned that DFO shut down the elver fishery for 45 days, and a notice to this effect was placed on the power pole by the spot on the shoulder of the road which the elver fishers have been using for parking."

I've seen this in many spots in my riding. It's not even plasticized. It's just a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

There's a point of order from MP Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, again, I'm not sure that fishing, although very interesting, has anything to do with the motion we have at hand, which is to support and to invite the minister to appear before the committee.

Mr. Chair, this is a discussion about fishing. We've heard a lot now that is not relevant to this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You're right, Madam Chatel. It is not relevant to the amendment to the motion, which is about the finance minister's appearance at our committee.

MP Perkins, again, could you stick to the amendment?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

If I could respectfully disagree, I thought I explained through my last intervention about that minister that this is about accountability. This is about the accountability letters that the Prime Minister said.... This is about the Minister of Finance's accountability to Parliament, which she is ignoring. She has ignored the last three requests. There were three requests over the last while, but she has ignored four appearances at this committee.

You'll understand, I'm sure, members, that we don't believe that another polite request is having any impact, as the minister continues to ignore not only this committee but, frankly, Parliament as well, by only coming once a month. She has time for two hours of meetings at a Liberal convention here in Ottawa, but not two hours of time to come before the House of Commons finance committee to defend her budget.

The accountability aspect is a symbol for her lack of accountability to Parliament, and it's endemic in this government that ministers are not accountable to Parliament. Here you have me, as a parliamentarian, asking the Minister of Fisheries politely, respectfully, to do as the Prime Minister's letter says they are to do as ministers in their accountability, asking them to do something about lawlessness and not doing it in a political way.... This is not a political issue. Accountability to Parliament goes back to the founding of the mother of all parliaments at Westminster. That's the essence of our democracy.

We seem to be dealing an awful lot these days with questions from this government on what they think the essence of our democracy is. They think it seems to be okay to intimidate members of Parliament, to allow foreign governments to intimidate members of Parliament after they vote on basic human rights issues, on the imprisonment of Uyghurs in Uyghur states in China, and they express the defence of human rights in the House of Commons. Two years ago, the Prime Minister was sent briefing notes by our intelligence community that China is intimidating a member of Parliament. This is fundamental.

This issue is just as fundamental. The minister won't come to the committee and has refused requests to come in the past. I thought the member said they thought it was interesting.... I read your own documents that require ministers to be accountable and to work with parliamentarians in order to ensure, show and put pressure on the minister, because I think that's the only way we can do it. This issue is endemic within this government. This government does not respect Parliament, even though they ran on a campaign in 2015 to restore the integrity of Parliament.

When the mandate letter says to work “with your Opposition Critics”, and the minister ignores what an opposition critic says privately month after month.... I'm sure that my colleague, our shadow minister for finance, has suffered the same thing. In fact, I suspect he's probably had few meetings with the Minister of Finance, if any, and has had discussions almost.... It's an odd thing to me that a member of Parliament on this committee would question the relevance of a minister ignoring a heartfelt letter to a minister asking, “Why are you ignoring our pleas?”

As this person says, why did property owners along the estuaries have to suffer this disturbance? Why is it a free-for-all in fishing? All the activities create confusion, misunderstanding and resentment, emotions that only serve to create conflict rather than eradicate it. Furthermore, that the DFO shut down the fishery only served to stop those with legal licences. The illegal fishing continued. There needs to be some sort of plan put in place to protect the rights of property owners.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I have MP Baker with a point of order.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, the motion before us is one to invite the Minister of Finance to speak at this committee. The member is not speaking to that. He's speaking about fishing. He's speaking about eels. He's speaking about a lot of things that are completely irrelevant to the work of this committee and to the motion before us. I would ask you to ask the member to stay on topic.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Mr. Chair, may I speak?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

No.

First, MP Perkins—