Finance Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Rachael Wilson]

To correct that, the number of people on social assistance has remained pretty consistent. It is 60% of the people who access food banks.

It really is a larger number of people who are employed or who are becoming unemployed and are on that tipping point of poverty.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Again, it's driven by rent and food increases.

Thanks very much. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

Now we're going to go over to Ms. Chatel, please, for five minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Bernard first.

I, too, was very happy with the measures in the budget. I'm going to share something personal with you. My sister, a scientist, is on an animal protection committee. You're probably familiar with those. She is one of the scientists in charge of examining and approving the protocols used for scientific testing on animals. According to her, the committees are multidisciplinary, with a veterinarian, a researcher who doesn't do any animal testing and a researcher who does. They do a quite a bit of technical research like that. The process is already quite stringent. She was very glad that her own committee had been rejecting a lot of animal testing.

The budget brings to mind all the work that people like you and organizations like yours do to advocate for animal protection. You said that banning unnecessary cosmetic testing on animals would make Canada a global leader in the development of animal testing alternatives.

Now that the ban is included in the budget implementation bill, what do you think?

[Michael Bernard]

We were very happy to see this in the budget. We've been working on it for the past 10 years, working with our colleagues at Cosmetics Alliance Canada.

Over the past decade or so, I think the cosmetics industry has really led the way in phasing out animal testing. To their credit, they basically do little to no animal testing in Canada at this time. We're very happy that this industry is moving away from this, and it's happening globally. China is one of the only countries left that still require some testing on animals, as Darren mentioned earlier in his testimony.

I'd also say that Bill S-5, the amendments to CEPA, has a phase-out for chemical toxicity animal testing. Whenever there are animal testing alternatives in place, it would require that you use those alternatives to animal testing. It's really nice to see that this package is moving forward all together.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

All right.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Praznik?

[Darren Praznik]

Thank you.

If I may, I'll add to what was a very good question.

One thing that I think we are all going to face with both this and, of course, the targets in the new modernization of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act is this: When you talk about non-animal testing alternatives, it isn't just one for one—having an animal test and now having another test that replaces it. It is a whole different way of thinking about testing. We are going to need, as a country, to develop regulators, scientists and formulators who are well educated and versed in those new methods. Every country that has successfully implemented a ban has a centre in their country where this is focused.

We are fortunate to have a centre, at the University of Windsor, for alternatives to animal-testing methods. They are going to need, I think, all of our support—government and industry—to be able to do further work, not only in developing alternative methods but also in getting regulatory acceptance for them, which is going to be very critical under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. Even, and perhaps more importantly, training our regulatory staff and the Environment and Health Canada formulators in our industry, and other scientists, on how to use those new methods.... These are very different ways of thinking about testing and, as Michael pointed out, they can often produce much better scientific results.

We are at the beginning of what is a bit of a revolution in the way we think about safety testing.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much.

Do I still have some time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is the time, MP Chatel.

However, we are going into our third round. We won't have time for a full third round. What we will do is divide the time we have equally among the four parties.

We are going to start with MP Vecchio. That's for about four minutes or so.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you so much.

Rachael, thank you so much for being here.

To all the guests, thank you very much for being here.

Rachael, I want to stick to you, because I know your job must be extraordinarily difficult at this time. I've worked with many of the members in our own local food banks and recognize the stress.

You were asked about the mental health and addictions piece. What are you seeing on the streets? What are you seeing when people come in for some of the services? I don't know whether you coordinate with other organizations or try to do that type of work. What partnerships have you built in our communities?

[Rachael Wilson]

We recognize that being poor is incredibly harmful to your health. It is incredibly taxing and stressful to figure out where your next meal is going to come from and to have to navigate the systems in place, at all levels of government, to access the supports that are needed.

One of the critical partnerships we have is with community health and resource centres here in Ottawa, which play a role in making those referrals, supports and resources for people dealing with health issues, social assistance and the other social problems that bring people to a food bank.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thanks very much.

I want to go back to the people who are working. I don't think it's necessarily the working poor who are coming to see you—those who have low wages.

What are you seeing when you talk about those double incomes or family incomes? Do you know what that might be like? What types of incomes are you referring to...those double incomes? What might family incomes be—the higher end that you're seeing?

[Rachael Wilson]

I would have to submit that. I don't have those numbers with us.

We know there are a significant number of people who are well educated and employed. Housing and living in Ottawa are not affordable for many people.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Absolutely. I appreciate that.

Moving on to the food piece, you were talking about the cost. Are most of your funds through donations from the community? How do you get the money for the food bank, specifically?

[Rachael Wilson]

The Ottawa Food Bank, like most food banks in Canada, is funded almost entirely by the community and for the community. We get no federal or provincial funding, and we get less than 2% from the municipal government. I mentioned before that we are a $25-million organization, so that should give you a sense of the amount of support we rely on from the community. Clearly, the community deeply cares about its members.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

We're going to just keep on talking, Rachael.

How are you making out on the fundraising projects? I think what we're seeing, in some communities, is that people who might normally give are having difficulties, so it's that next generation—the historicals—who are having to give more and more. That's what I'm seeing in my community.

What are you seeing here?

[Rachael Wilson]

We are starting to see our fundraising take a slight dip, because we know many people are struggling to make their own ends meet. We're seeing donations from the front of the grocery store—from people who are shopping in grocery stores—dip as well, because we know it's that much harder to pick up something extra for people who are at a food bank.

It continues to be very challenging for the organization to meet the needs.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Absolutely. On the operating costs, what have you seen? I recognize that food costs have gone up extravagantly. What have you seen for the operating costs for your business as well? Have they gone up?

[Rachael Wilson]

We are a living-wage employer. We insist on paying our staff a living wage, and we've seen that increase, of course. On the cost of freight and the cost of having things shipped in, we've seen ongoing supply chain issues that are impacting the cost.

We've also had to move into a new facility that is 51,000 square feet compared to 21,000 square feet. We had to rebuild that whole space. The cost of doing that jumped dramatically over the two years when we were retrofitting that space.

We're getting hit left, right and centre.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

You needed more space because you have more clients and you were needing more food. It's this vicious cycle.

[Rachael Wilson]

Absolutely, and we knew that for the years to come we would need to continue to grow. Unfortunately, we've continued to grow beyond any measure that we imagined.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I think I read somewhere that food costs have increased by 9.2%. When you're taking those donations and going out to the stores to get some of those items, or to partnerships that you have with other people, how far is the dollar going? How many fewer people are you able to serve with the costs...?

[Rachael Wilson]

We continue to serve everyone we can who comes to our 112 member agencies. Before the pandemic, we were able to save five dollars to one....

I'm being cut off.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

No, it's okay. He's cutting me off.

[Rachael Wilson]

We could take one dollar and turn it into five dollars' worth of food, but we know that there is not the same buying power now that we had experienced for years. The cost of food is making up about 50% of our total increased costs right now.