Evidence of meeting #96 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was taxonomy.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Barbara Zvan  President and Chief Executive Officer, University Pension Plan, Ontario, As an Individual
Julie Segal  Senior Manager, Climate Finance, Environmental Defence Canada
Keith Stewart  Senior Energy Strategist, Greenpeace Canada
Kathy Bardswick  Chair, Sustainable Finance Action Council
Rupert Darwall  Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 96 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, March 7, 2023, the committee is meeting to discuss the current state of play on green finance, green investment, transition finance and transparency, standards and taxonomy.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute your mike when you are not speaking.

With regard to interpretation for those on Zoom, there is the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. Members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

With us today, we have, as an individual, the president and chief executive officer of University Pension Plan Ontario, Barbara Zvan.

From Environmental Defence Canada, we have Julie Segal, senior program manager, climate finance.

From Greenpeace Canada, we have with us Keith Stewart, senior energy strategist.

From the Sustainable Finance Action Council, we have the chair, Kathy Bardswick, with us.

Finally, from RealClear Foundation, we have Rupert Darwall, senior fellow.

Welcome to all our witnesses. We are going to start off by allowing you to provide your opening remarks to the members before we move to questions.

We'll start with Ms. Barbara Zvan, please.

11 a.m.

Barbara Zvan President and Chief Executive Officer, University Pension Plan, Ontario, As an Individual

Hello, everyone. My name is Barb Zvan. I'm the president and CEO of University Pension Plan. I chair the Sustainable Finance Action Council's taxonomy technical experts group and I was a member of Canada's Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance.

I previously appeared before this committee to speak about your February 2020 report, “Canadian Ideas: Leveraging our Strengths”, which contained 92 recommendations, the first of which was: “Adopt the recommendations of the Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance that are within federal jurisdiction and support other jurisdictions and the private sector to do the same.”

The expert panel's recommendations included establishing the Sustainable Finance Action Council and bringing together key stakeholders to develop Canadian green and transition taxonomies. As we noted in 2019, without the essential building blocks “market development and investment in this field will continue to lag, and sustainable finance will remain an add-on to mainstream capital market activities.”

Today, I'm here as a representative of the finance community to talk about the urgent need for Canada to implement a green and transition taxonomy and the immense economic risk of failing to finance the transition to a resilient, net-zero world.

I want to start off with a big number: $115 billion. That is the size of the annual investment gap that Canada has to fill in order to deliver on its net-zero transition commitments, according to data provided by the Sustainable Finance Action Council secretariat and confirmed in last year's budget.

So where do we find $115 billion each year? The government alone cannot meet this need. Domestic financial players cannot do it alone. We need to attract private investors from within Canada and from abroad who are eager to fund projects that are compatible with net-zero goals.

The interest and the demand is there, as evidenced by the growth of products like green bonds, but we must provide urgent clarity and guidance about Canada's transition in order to accelerate the flow of capital to support it and in turn create new, well-paying jobs and grow Canada's economy.

Now the playbook for this already exists. Around the world there are more than 30 taxonomies already in place or under development, generally focused solely on green activities, each customized to a specific country or region in order to link global capital markets with their respective net-zero pathway. A Canadian taxonomy would foster investor confidence and support the growth of Canada's sustainable finance market. This is critical to ensuring Canadian companies have access to a reliable source of capital over time to support credible net-zero transition plans and new economic opportunities.

The federal government has had the Sustainable Finance Action Council's green and transition taxonomy road map report since November 2022. The report not only provides guidance on standardizing classification of green activities, an important step to mitigate greenwashing, but unique to Canada, it also includes a transition classification, which is crucial for decarbonizing emission-intensive activities and securing Canada's economic competitiveness in a global low-carbon transition.

This transition category includes decarbonizing fossil fuel production in a credible and impactful way. Inclusion of the transition category has received global attention with nations like Australia following suit, and Sean Kidney, CEO of the Climate Bonds Initiative, an international NGO working to mobilize capital for climate action, described SFAC's proposal of a transition category as an example for other nations.

As other nations move forward with the frameworks to mobilize capital, Canada is being left behind. Businesses and investors are prepared to invest now in whichever country or region offers not only the best opportunities but also clarity that the investment will be aligned with the country's net-zero transition. Canada cannot afford to be left behind. Canada cannot afford to have other regions define transition without us or for us.

I thank the committee for its time and look forward to answering your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Zvan.

Now we'll move to Ms. Julie Segal, please.

11:05 a.m.

Julie Segal Senior Manager, Climate Finance, Environmental Defence Canada

Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to appear.

My name is Julie Segal and I lead a climate finance policy program at Environmental Defence Canada. I am an author of a policy road map to a sustainable financial system in Canada, which we published last November. I also contributed key public input about the draft sustainable taxonomy and on the climate-aligned finance act that is currently in the Senate.

Thousands of companies, banks and pension funds, including all of Canada's big banks and about 60% of the largest companies globally, have committed voluntarily to reaching net-zero emissions. Of that group, only 4% have delivered basic requirements for meeting their own commitments, like publishing a plan or setting short-term, interim targets. This means the majority of groups are not showing progress on their own commitments to reduce emissions. They recognize that the action is important, but they have not demonstrated action.

If groups have promised to do something important but the majority are not delivering on it, green finance policy should come in to set it on track.

For consistency with Canadian climate commitments under the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act and under the global Paris Agreement, rules to align the financial sector with climate commitments are important. Other sectors of the Canadian economy are under rules to reduce emissions. Complementary direction is needed for the financial sector, above just the existing incentives, to mobilize green investment.

Climate finance rules are also important to remain consistent with global allies. I would invite you to focus on the U.K. and the EU, which have mandates for a net-zero financial system and have rules in place directly for the financial sector to advance action on climate commitments. The EU sustainable finance laws already affect over 1,300 Canadian companies, so getting in line with the global trajectory makes sense for Canada. That requires specific climate finance policy.

Recognizing this, I'm very glad to see the finance committee hosting this study. The recent motion that was tabled stating that the government should use all legislative and regulatory tools at its disposal to align Canada's financial system with the Paris Agreement is a step very much in the right direction. That was tabled in the House. I'm thrilled by the multi-party support for this motion and commend many of you and your colleagues who seconded it.

I'll outline a few specific policy measures this Parliament can take to deliver on that motion.

First, a sustainable finance taxonomy should be brought into law. Its categories and parameters must be based on what's scientifically required to keep global warming below 1.5°C. We support the next step of a much broader consultation for a taxonomy, with input from climate experts, including civil society. Most importantly we support bringing the final product into regulation and linking it to disclosure requirements, like in the EU.

A transition definition is a tricky endeavour. We support introducing one. Sectors like steel and cement have high emissions today, but create materials that are important for a low-emissions economy. I would highlight that carbon capture for oil and gas activities should not fall under the sustainable transition label.

Second, we suggest requiring credible climate transition plans for all federally regulated financial institutions, companies and Crown corporations. A credible climate transition plan means following the pathway of what is scientifically required to keep warming below 1.5°C, which means ensuring that each institution's emissions peak by 2025 and decline by half by 2030. That's the requirement for a credible climate transition plan.

Regulation can deliver these credible climate transition plan requirements across the Canadian economy. Corporate transition plans can be required through the Canada Business Corporations Act. The Crown corporations can be directed under the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. For federally regulated financial institutions, we have had positive conversations with OSFI in an ongoing working relationship. It is our opinion that they can advance credible climate transition plans for federally regulated financial institutions.

Canada experienced over $5 trillion in insurable losses in the past two years. Looking forward, over $100 billion of Canadian assets are at risk of nosediving in value due to financial institutions moving too slowly on the climate transition.

The best way to reduce these climate-related financial losses is to reduce climate change. Requiring credible climate transition plans across the financial sector is a very important way to do that. To build an affordable economy for people across Canada and a climate that is safe from disasters like the wildfires currently happening in every single one of our provinces, a climate-aligned financial system is key.

I encourage all of you to enact policies that ensure that federally regulated financial institutions reduce emissions and build resilience to climate change.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Segal.

Now we'll hear from Greenpeace Canada and Mr. Keith Stewart, please.

June 13th, 2023 / 11:10 a.m.

Keith Stewart Senior Energy Strategist, Greenpeace Canada

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

My name is Keith Stewart, and I'm a senior energy strategist with Greenpeace Canada. I'm also a sessional lecturer at the University of Toronto, where I teach a course on energy and environmental policy.

While green finance and taxonomies may seem like particularly arcane areas of policy, they are incredibly important in the current moment. Finance is the lifeblood of the fossil fuel industry, and where there is this kind of money and power in play, there are going to be politics. That's the way the world works.

In my time today, I would like to highlight how we cannot understand the current state of play of green finance independently of some those politics.

Last week, Greenpeace Canada published a report entitled “What to do about Canadian banks ‘quiet quitting’ their climate commitments?” Copies have been circulated to the committee.

When I first started working on it, it was focused on how Canada's big five banks weren't meeting the UN's science-based net-zero criteria. This was in spite of the fact that they are members of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero, whose membership criteria were set by the United Nations. They have a program called Race to Zero, which sets criteria for a number of these types of voluntary initiatives by municipalities, corporations, banks and investors. Those criteria included an immediate end to the funding of fossil fuel expansion projects and cutting financed emissions in half by 2030.

That is a steep hill for Canadian banks to climb. Their support for fossil fuels has, in fact, been growing since the Paris Agreement was signed. Last year, RBC was the largest funder among global banks of fossil fuels in the entire world. The other four big banks all made it into the top 15 of global banks. Collectively, Canada's big five banks' share of fossil fuel funding among the 60 largest banks in the world went from 14% in 2016 to over 20% in 2022. In fact, we're playing a bigger role globally in the funding of fossil fuels than we used to.

The UN was taking a hard line against this kind of what it called greenwashing and gave GFANZ members until June 15, 2023—two days from now—to meet the UN criteria or risk getting kicked out of the Race to Zero initiative, so the banks quit quietly.

Last October, GFANZ changed its membership criteria from “all GFANZ members must align with the Race to Zero criteria” to they must “take note of the advice and guidance of...the Race to Zero.” In other words, big-money players can now do whatever they want and call it net zero without an overarching bar they have to meet.

The rationale for this change was the threat from Republican politicians and some state governments in the United States to sue GFANZ members under antitrust legislation for colluding against fossil fuels. To be clear, these politicians aren't using antitrust laws to go after the tech giants or drug manufacturers for abusing market power, but they are targeting banks and investment managers for potentially dialling back their investments in fossil fuels.

There may be a temptation to say, “Oh, this is just those crazy American culture wars.” That would be naive.

When the New York Times reviewed over 10,000 pages of documents and emails related to the rise of the anti-ESG movement, they found that it was the oil, coal and gas companies and their industry associations that had weaponized—a New York Times word, not mine—Republican state treasurers against fossil fuel divestment. In many cases, it was the same organizations, like the Heartland Institute, that were at the core of earlier climate denial campaigns and are now leading the charge against ESG and green finance.

Indeed, the campaign against green finance is best understood as the latest incarnation of climate denial. It is a well-funded, coordinated campaign to defend the interests and profits of the fossil fuel industry by delaying the transition to clean energy. We should not, however, fall for this particular bag of tricks again.

I would like to suggest to you that in painting voluntary net-zero commitments as collusion, the fossil fuel lobby has overplayed its hand. It's laid bare the limitations of industry self-regulation.

If an initiative like GFANZ actually changes “business as usual” in a significant way, members will be sued for collusion—half the insurance companies that are members of GFANZ have quit over these concerns—and yet you can't be accused of collusion for meeting regulatory requirements. The only viable path forward at this moment is for governments to set and enforce clear rules that will align private finance with our climate commitments. The banks won't like it, but the public does. According to polling undertaken by Greenpeace Canada, 70% of Canadians support regulation to align finance with our climate commitments.

In our recent report, we point to the work of my colleague, Julie Segal, from Environmental Defence on how to begin that process under existing legislation. We also point to how we can deepen it via legislation like that proposed by Senator Rosa Galvez.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Mr. Stewart, you have to wrap up, please.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Energy Strategist, Greenpeace Canada

Keith Stewart

Okay.

We were particularly heartened to see the recent cross-party support for using every legislative and regulatory tool at its disposal. We hope we can get on with the job.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. There will be a lot of time to expand on that during questions from members.

We move now to the Sustainable Finance Action Council and Kathy Bardswick, please.

11:20 a.m.

Kathy Bardswick Chair, Sustainable Finance Action Council

Thank you for this opportunity to present.

I'm speaking today in my capacity as chair of the Sustainable Finance Action Council, which I will refer to as SFAC going forward. I have almost 40 years of experience working in both the domestic and international insurance industry helping individuals, businesses and governments assess and manage risk. It's through this lens that I have come to appreciate the undeniable challenges and opportunities the changing climate is creating.

I applaud this committee for its consideration of the state of sustainable finance in Canada, with, I anticipate, a resulting commitment to take additional action where warranted. I also applaud the federal government for implementing a key recommendation from the expert panel report on sustainable finance in establishing SFAC. I trust that these two actions are indications of our shared desire to execute a vision for Canada that defines the prosperous role our country has played and will continue to play as the world decarbonizes, recognizing that the successful execution of that vision now demands collaboration and levels of co-operation not seen previously.

SFAC is one such collaboration. First, it formally brought together 25 financial institutions representing investors, lenders and insurers, a unique opportunity to align perspectives across subsectors of the private financial system. This has proven to be invaluable in aligning an understanding of and support for critically important roles that private finance must play to achieve Canada's economic objectives.

Second, it brought together federal, provincial and territorial finance leadership to a shared table, working alongside SFAC through the official sector coordinating group, allowing mutually beneficial understanding and support of each other's objectives.

Third, it has provided extensive opportunities to engage a much larger list of stakeholders, in both Canada and internationally, as SFAC works to fulfill its mandate. This list includes industry, civil society and academia in addition to the international outreach and collaborations that we have been leveraging.

Finally, the work we have delivered to date is impactful, strongly endorsed by a very significant share of the private financial system in this country and deserving of further action.

You heard from my colleague, Barbara Zvan, whose comments were focused on a more in-depth review of the critically important role of taxonomies in economies around the world and the critical importance of establishing and implementing a taxonomy in Canada. You have also heard from international voices outlining a call to action for Canada to continue, and in some respects increase, its influence in global discourse.

SFAC's other work streams have outlined the additional need for progress on climate disclosure within the public and private markets, aligned with international developments, in a report delivered to government in early February. Our current work includes identifying how to increase the flow of private capital to Canadian transition investment through a series of case studies focused on selected sectors and designed to identify high-priority recommendations to remove barriers. We expect to complete this report by the end of the year.

All of this and more is needed if we want to strengthen Canada's sustainable finance capacity and ensure that we attract the necessary increased levels of domestic and international capital to continue to prosper economically as the world transitions. It is truly gratifying to witness the commitment and contribution from our SFAC members these past two years towards a shared goal of helping Canada prosper in the years ahead. Council members have provided significant leadership, time and resources to the tasks at hand. It is my sincere hope that these efforts will be met by a continued high level of collaboration from policy-makers to advance this essential work.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Bardswick.

Now we go to the Realclear Foundation. We have Mr. Rupert Darwall.

11:20 a.m.

Rupert Darwall Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

I'm Rupert Darwall from the Realclear Foundation. [Technical difficulty—Editor]

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Mr. Darwall, I think you just froze on us.

We will try to bring him back. We're going to reach out to Mr. Darwall to see if we can take care of this quickly.

Right now, members, not to lose any time with our great witnesses we have, we're going to move right to the rounds of questions.

In the first round—

11:25 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

Rupert Darwall

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. Zoom just collapsed on me. If you have a moment, can I—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Can you hear us?

11:25 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

Rupert Darwall

Yes, I can hear you rather clearly, Mr. Chairman.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Okay, the floor is yours. Go ahead, Mr. Darwall.

11:25 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

Rupert Darwall

Thank you very much, sir.

Financing the energy transition can be broken down into two capital flows: increased capital into renewable energy generation and capital outflows from sharply reduced investment in the oil and gas sector. Much of the purpose of transparency and disclosure of climate-related metrics is with a view to influencing these two flows. As Mr. Mark Carney has put it, “What gets measured gets managed. That's why reporting climate-related financial info is critical if we are to achieve #netzero.”

Although the inflow of capital into renewable energy does not depend on the outflow of capital from the oil and gas sector, this capital outflow is seen by many as a key component of the energy transition.

If I may, I'd like to confine my comments to the second of these; that is, the curtailing of investment in oil and gas output.

This view was given added authority in May 2021 when the International Energy Agency published “Net Zero by 2050: A Roadmap for the Global Energy Sector”. Its headline statement was “no fossil fuel exploration is required [in the net-zero scenario] and no new oil and...gas fields are required beyond those that have already been approved for development.”

The timing of this statement was strategic in that it occurred in the run‐up to the delayed Glasgow COP26 climate conference. If that conference was about anything, it was about finance. That conference, as we know, saw the formation of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero. As Rishi Sunak, who was then chancellor of the exchequer, explained, the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero is about bringing together “financial...assets worth over $130 trillion of capital”. He went on to say, “So our third action is to rewire the entire global financial system for net zero.”

This raises an important philosophical or, perhaps, ideological question, as it implies the socialization of private savings and the deployment of private capital for public policy ends. One way around this has been to claim there is no conflict or tension between delivering public policy goals and fiduciaries' duties to maximize risk-adjusted returns for beneficiaries, because ESG investing delivers higher returns. As Wall Street has it, “doing well by doing good”.

However nice-sounding this might be, it does, however, conflict with modern portfolio theory; and earlier this year it was rejected by Tim Buckley, the chief executive of Vanguard, the world's second-largest asset manager. Buckley's words were matched by action. Vanguard also quit the net-zero asset managers initiative, part of GFANZ.

In the case of ESG investors taking up the IEA's view of no investment in new oil and gas fields, we don't have to decide that philosophical question, for the reason I will now explain.

The first thing to understand is that the IEA's view on no investment in new oil and gas fields derives from its assumption that the superiority of renewable energy reduces the demand for oil and natural gas. This assumption is reflected in the IEA's net-zero forecast of low and falling oil and gas prices. To be clear, the IEA did not advocate a path to net zero based on constraining the output of oil and gas and destroying demand through stratospheric price increases. Yet, data in the IEA net-zero pathway demonstrates the inferiority and the inefficiency of renewable energy as substitutes for oil and gas.

By 2030, the IEA says the energy transition will be employing nearly 25 million more workers and using an extra $16.5 trillion of capital to produce 7% less energy. The inefficiency of the energy transition implies a fall of 33% in energy output per employee in the energy sector—more land, labour and capital to produce less. This is the antithesis of growth economics. Indeed, the IEA's own analysis contradicts its presumption of the economic superiority of renewable energy.

In 2022, the IEA issued a warning in its “World Energy Outlook” that cutting the supply of oil and gas is not a substitute for cutting demand. It says:

Reducing fossil fuel investment in advance of, or instead of, policy action and clean energy investment to reduce energy demand would not lead to the same outcomes as in the NZE Scenario. If supply were to transition faster than demand, with a drop in fossil fuel investment preceding a surge in clean energy technologies, this would lead to much higher prices—possibly for a prolonged period—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Mr. Darwall, you'll have to wrap up.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Realclear Foundation

Rupert Darwall

Yes.

This leaves, I would suggest, very little for ESG investors with respect to oil and gas companies, as their only lever is to embargo capital investment in new oil and gas fields.

Thank you for your indulgence.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Darwall.

Thank you to all our witnesses for their opening remarks.

We're going now to members' questions. In the first round of questions, each party will have up to six minutes to ask you questions. We're starting with the Conservatives.

MP Morantz, you have six minutes, please.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are here today. We've had a number of meetings on the issue of green finance. It's been very, very interesting, I have to say.

I want to direct my first question to you, Ms. Zvan. You are the president and the CEO of the Ontario University Pension Plan. On your website, it says that the stated purpose of the UPP is investing in economic activities that contribute substantially to reducing greenhouse gas emissions or adapting to climate change.

I guess what I'm trying to get straight in my mind is that, in terms of a person who is managing a pension fund, normally your main goal is to maximize returns for the investors in that plan. After all, this is their pension. What I'm wondering about is if you have any data with respect to the economic activities you're investing in as to whether or not they provide an equivalent return on investment to assets that wouldn't be defined in that way.

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, University Pension Plan, Ontario, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

If we back up for the purpose of UPP, we provide pensions. We are a fiduciary to our members, including probably Keith here. Our goal is to provide return on a risk-adjusted basis to meet our pension liabilities. It is with that lens that we view many factors, including environmental, social and governance. There is well-stated documentation and research out of Stern School of Business, Harvard and Oxford, that when you include material ESG elements—not immaterial but material ESG elements—they improve your risk-return outcomes. It's that lens we bring to the university pension plan's portfolio.

We believe that it makes us better investors and better risk managers, and it leads us to think forward, since we are, really, generational investors. We are investing for 80 years, from a time a member joins our plan to the time we make their last pension cheque.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Aside from those studies, has it been borne out in practice that these investments are equivalent to or better than investments that don't meet the definition?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, University Pension Plan, Ontario, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

I have about 25 years, prior to my role at the University Pension Plan, at the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan as the chief risk and strategy officer. I probably participated in every investment committee during my career there. It is a factor in many investments when you think about the duration for which you invest in private assets, particularly long-term ones. They are factors that you consider going in, environmental, social and governance.

I will point you to some of the latest news that are public in terms of Blackstone and its investment in using child labour in the U.S.—