Evidence of meeting #16 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crime.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Superintendent Michael Saghbini  Director General, Financial Crime, Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sergeant Chad Babin  Financial Crime, Federal Police Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan (Calgary East, CPC)) Conservative Jasraj Singh Hallan

Good morning, everybody.

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you. For those participating by video conference.... I'll skip that part.

For members participating in person, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The committee clerks and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated speaking order.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, September 22, 2025, the committee shall resume its study of the use of offshore tax havens.

I would like to welcome both of our witnesses today. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks, after which we will open the floor to questions.

Today we have, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Chad Babin, assistant staff sergeant, federal police criminal operations, financial crime; and Michael Saghbini, chief superintendent and director general, federal police criminal operations, financial crime.

I'll give either one of you or both of you five minutes for your opening statement.

Chief Superintendent Michael Saghbini Director General, Financial Crime, Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.

My name is Chief Superintendent Michael Saghbini. I'm the director general for financial crime within federal policing criminal operations at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP. I'm joined by acting Staff Sergeant Chad Babin, a subject matter expert in financial crime within federal policing criminal operations.

I am honoured to speak to you all today from the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'll begin with a brief description of the RCMP's role. Financial crime is a priority for the RCMP and is part of its mandate to protect Canada's economic integrity. We work closely with the Canada Revenue Agency, the CRA, which is the lead department responsible for investigating tax evasion related to offshore tax havens. As you know, the CRA has its own investigative capacity through its criminal investigations directorate and is well positioned to investigate tax evasion cases in close collaboration with law enforcement agencies like the RCMP.

The RCMP plays an important support role on this issue. We are not a primary recipient of tax information, but we may become involved in investigations, especially when they intersect with such other criminal activities as money laundering, fraud and corruption. In these cases, the RCMP collaborates with the CRA; the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, better known as FINTRAC; and international partners to investigate and prosecute individuals or entities that use tax havens to hide illicit funds.

We know that tax evasion and other tax crimes have serious consequences, as they lower government revenue and undermine public trust in Canada's tax system. Tax-related crimes are also part of complex schemes that allow criminals to benefit from the proceeds of their crimes and use those funds to further their criminal activities. Proceeds from illegal activity are routinely wired through tax haven jurisdictions, whose opaque financial structures, such as offshore banks, shell companies, trusts and law firms, decouple illicit wealth from its original owner.

In “Understanding Canada’s 2025 National Risk Assessment of Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing”, tax evasion is listed as a high money-laundering threat to the Canadian economy. Unfortunately, we know that sophisticated organized criminal groups use complex money-laundering networks to leverage the global financial system to hide income and assets. This often includes using offshore locations and companies to hide and launder large amounts of money.

Tackling this through a multi-agency and law enforcement approach can be effective. For example, you may be familiar with Projet Collecteur, a joint investigation between the CRA's criminal investigations directorate and the RCMP. This investigation uncovered a large professional money-laundering network spanning several countries and leveraging money service businesses and informal value transfer systems. Several people were charged and convicted as a result of this investigation, including for tax evasion and related crimes.

Many factors can impact law enforcement's ability to investigate tax evasion occurring in a tax haven. As with other kinds of financial crime, tax crime methods continue to evolve. This is particularly the case with the increasing use of digital currency, which is still unregulated in certain jurisdictions and is very hard to trace. As well, the speed at which digital currency moves can sometimes outpace law enforcement and other agencies' efforts.

As well, transnational crime poses jurisdictional challenges for law enforcement. Those in law enforcement are dependent on international partners delivering timely results. Offshore jurisdictions can sometimes delay or limit the provision of information. That said, in recent years progress has been made in Canada and other countries to address gaps that allow for criminals to use tax havens for their benefit.

For example, new laws and regulatory requirements in Canada around beneficial ownership will assist in organized crime and money-laundering investigations by identifying the real individuals.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan) Conservative Jasraj Singh Hallan

Mr. Saghbini, thank you. That's five minutes.

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm ready to answer any questions you may have.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan) Conservative Jasraj Singh Hallan

Thank you.

We'll move into our first round for six minutes, starting with Ms. Cobena.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for your remarks, Mr. Saghbini. You brought me back to the days when I was working in the financial sector.

I think you hit the nail on the head in that these criminals are highly sophisticated. They're very fast. They adapt, and these schemes are highly complex, and they change all the time. Oftentimes, when you take a step back, you wonder how the rules and the law are ever going to keep up with them, because they're around the world.

At the same time, for the average Canadian who is working incredibly hard and abiding by the rules and paying the taxes, it can be extremely frustrating to know that the tax code is so complicated and that only the highly sophisticated or the people who are extremely wealthy and able to afford sophisticated lawyers and accountants will be able to find the loopholes and not pay taxes. That's frustrating to the average Canadian.

My question for you is this: What do you see as the biggest risk right now in terms of money laundering, tax evasion and financial crime? It happens all day, every day. How do we as a country keep up with that?

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

It's very true, what you're saying. The organized crime elements are using very sophisticated methods to shelter their money. They're using cryptocurrencies, which are very difficult to trace, in some instances. They're using different types of wallets that are not the typical ones we would know that are above ground.

It becomes very difficult to trace it in the layering of the companies, and sometimes we have lawyers who are named in these companies, and then you have client-solicitor privilege, which also becomes an issue.

Some of these lawyers are willingly doing it and some are unknowingly doing it, so it becomes a very difficult task from a law enforcement perspective. We are looking at it from the crime side. We're not looking at the tax evasion side of the house. That's a CRA mandate. We're looking at the predicate offences, like the drug trafficking that's leading to the money laundering, the sophisticated frauds and the large frauds that are the offences allowing them to move large amounts of funds.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

What is the biggest risk? What should we as parliamentarians focus on? As I said, it happens all day, every single day. What is the best way to target it?

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

I'll pass that question over to Chad. He's in some of the working groups, so he may be able to give you a more detailed answer.

Staff Sergeant Chad Babin Financial Crime, Federal Police Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you.

One of the larger risks or things that we have to deal with is beneficial ownership. That's a hot-button topic for us: Who actually controls or owns certain trusts or corporations?

Certain low-tax jurisdictions allow complex set-ups of trusts or corporate registries, and finding the actual owners of those is a challenge for the police, especially when dealing with their international partners in certain jurisdictions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Do you have a sense of the volume of investigations? How many investigations would you typically do in a year?

S/Sgt Chad Babin

I do not have that number with me, but I would be happy to provide that later.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Okay.

Out of the investigations, roughly speaking, percentage-wise, in how many would there actually be convictions?

S/Sgt Chad Babin

That I also don't know. PPSC, our Crown counsel or the courts would keep track of that number.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Okay.

On average, how long would an investigation take?

S/Sgt Chad Babin

That's a good question. Some can be rather quick, and some can be quite lengthy and take years. Even what I'll call a simple financial crime investigation takes many months. It's not a week or two thing. It can be several years, in most cases, leading up to when the charges are brought to trial.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you.

How big of a problem do you think the misuse of offshore tax havens and tax evasion are when it comes to financial crime and its impact on Canada's economy and tax system?

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

I don't know exactly how much is in tax havens. It does have a large impact. That's revenue that we don't see or is not provided to the government.

As we alluded to earlier, the tax evasion side of the house is a CRA mandate, where we're looking at the actual crime that's being committed for the money to be procured for them to send over overseas. We do work in collaboration with CRA, but from a tax evasion perspective, that's totally their mandate.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

This is my last, quick question. How do you ensure that the so-called “bad actors” in our society are held accountable for their financial crimes?

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

We're working very diligently, especially with fraud where, as you mentioned, law-abiding Canadian citizens are being defrauded, etc. We are working very hard to hold everybody who is committing these crimes accountable to the highest standard possible.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan) Conservative Jasraj Singh Hallan

That's the round.

Next, we have Mr. Sawatzky and Mr. Leitão.

Jake Sawatzky Liberal New Westminster—Burnaby—Maillardville, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming in today and also for all the important work you do.

The Canada financial crimes agency came out in budget 2025. I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the RCMP is going to align its financial crime expertise with this new agency, so that Canada has a modernized capacity to investigate offshore tax evasion.

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

Obviously, it's in its infancy stages, and we're not sure exactly how the agency's going to look.

We do know that we will be part of it. We have the expertise in fighting crime when it comes to financial crime. We will be working in close collaboration with this new agency, however it's going to look, and we will provide whatever support we need to provide in order to make this an effective and efficient agency.

Jake Sawatzky Liberal New Westminster—Burnaby—Maillardville, BC

Are there any recommendations you would have on how to make this most effective?

C/Supt Michael Saghbini

It's hard to come up with exact recommendations. I think that any time you work with different agencies where we can collaborate and where we can share expertise, it's beneficial.

Like in a joint task force-type unit, I think it's very important that we bring all of our partners in and be able to collaborate and work together. I think that would be an ideal situation, where we share our expertise, share our resources and share best practices.