Evidence of meeting #22 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was affairs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Jill McKnight  Minister of Veterans Affairs
McDowell  Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs
Svenson  Senior Director, Disability and Health Care Policy, Department of Veterans Affairs
Jardine  Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
Schippers  Deputy Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Jill McKnight Liberal Delta, BC

The Canadian government and I are committed to ensuring that veterans receive the benefits and services for which they are eligible for the service that they have given to Canada. I am committed to ensuring that we continue to support veterans with things such as the ongoing funding, which is a commitment to veterans.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

That concludes this hour. I would like to thank Minister McKnight and the officials from Veterans Affairs.

We will now briefly suspend while we switch over to the next hour.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Colleagues, welcome back for the second hour of this meeting.

I am delighted to welcome retired Colonel Nishika Jardine, the veterans ombud, as well as Duane Schippers, the deputy veterans ombud.

Ms. Jardine, you will have five minutes for opening remarks.

Thank you.

Nishika Jardine Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members.

Thank you for inviting me to share my views on the veterans-related provisions of Bill C‑15, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on November 4, 2025. I'm pleased to be joined by deputy veterans ombud and legal counsel, Mr. Duane Schippers.

The Office of the Veterans Ombudsman was established in 2007 to investigate complaints and challenge policies and decisions of Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, where we find individual or systemic unfairness. I am the fourth veterans ombud, appointed in 2020, and reappointed in 2025. I am also a veteran with almost 37 years of regular force service, including a deployment to Afghanistan.

I know budget 2025 will benefit the veteran community with the targeted investments in Veterans Affairs Canada to stabilize disability benefit processing and to modernize operations and IT systems. The demand for disability benefits continues to be acute, and I am heartened by this continued focus by government on reducing the time veterans have to wait to receive these benefits.

I was, however, disappointed that our 2021 recommendation about mental health treatment benefits for families is still not reflected in the government’s budget plan. I must, however, credit Veterans Affairs for doing their best within the legislative guidelines to provide some mental health supports to family members, provided they can link it to the well-being of the veteran, but it is not enough. I will continue to press for government to extend this much-needed benefit to our veteran families.

This said, I will focus the balance of my remarks on clauses 373 to 375 of Bill C-15.

You may be aware that I have written publicly to the Minister of Veterans Affairs to ask government to remove the unfair retroactive provision that affects long-term care subsidization for some of Canada’s elderly and most disabled veterans.

First of all, rest assured that I am not disputing the clarification that government is seeking to make, but rather pointing out that making it retroactive for more than 30 years is not only unprecedented but patently unfair.

At the heart of this matter is the interpretation of the word “province” in section 33.1 of the veterans health care regulations, which provides extensive and precise instructions on how to calculate the maximum monthly charge for accommodations and meals that eligible veterans going into long-term care are to pay themselves. The regulations state that the calculations must take into account “the lowest monthly user charge for accommodation and meals permitted by a province”.

In the Interpretation Act, Parliament long ago provided unequivocal guidance to legislative drafters that the word “province” is meant to include the territories if not otherwise defined. Therefore, the word “province” in the regulations must be interpreted to include the territories, but VAC made a mistake in the accommodations and meals calculations. It only considered provincial rates, but there is a territorial rate that is lower. As a result, veterans who were and are subsidized by VAC for long-term care have paid more for their accommodations and meals than they should have. Veterans have identified this error themselves and have launched a class action lawsuit to seek reimbursement.

The minister has told me this provision is meant to clarify the calculation method, which is fair going forward. However, if these sections are permitted to stand and Bill C-15 is passed, government will have effectively legitimized its past overcharges to veterans and, as it happens, will deny justice for some of our elderly and most disabled veterans.

As I have said many times before, Veterans Affairs is charged with delivering benefits and programs to a unique community of Canadians who value trust and truth as the high watermark of service. Veterans do not perceive VAC as just another government department. After we have served Canada by putting mission before self, we expect Veterans Affairs will behave with the utmost integrity and commitment to our well-being.

Frankly, it is hard not to see clauses 373 to 375 of Bill C-15 as a means to purposefully obviate an error made by the department since 1993 and to deny compensation to affected veterans. VAC already faces growing reputational backlash over the manner in which it communicates with Canada's veterans, their families and survivors.

On behalf of the entire veteran community, and in particular our elderly and most disabled veterans, I ask government to do the right thing and remove these offensive sections, acknowledge the error, and in some way make whole those veterans who were affected. This would be a step in the right direction toward regaining the trust of the veteran community.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Ms. Jardine.

We will begin now with Mr. Tolmie for six minutes, please.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Thank you to the ombud and the deputy for joining us today. I do appreciate your presentation.

This is a challenging time for those who are dealing with this clause. I would like for you to take some time, because you were only given five minutes, to expand a little bit more on what this will do to those.... If the government passes this bill, how will they be affected?

9:30 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

Madam Chair, veterans trust Veterans Affairs Canada to deliver the benefits and services that Parliament has put in place for them.

Most veterans are well served by the department. I've been all across this country and they say to me, “I'm good.” Very quietly, they come up to me afterwards and say, “I'm good. I couldn't be more satisfied with what I receive from Veterans Affairs Canada.” They're happy.

However, there is a group of veterans who have been affected by these decisions in the past and who are deeply concerned about this particular decision, which would essentially go against the rule of law and wipe out the mistake that the department has made.

I can tell you that there are veterans who so deeply distrust the department and are so angry about this. It makes me sad because I know the good that the department is doing. These are good people. I believe them, and I have faith in this department to deliver, but these kinds of things just destroy that trust. For military and RCMP, trust is what we base our service on. If I can't trust my buddy to do his part of the mission, then we can't complete the mission. What the government asks us to do is, quite frankly, nasty business. Trust is everything.

This is a small thing. Just say that we made a mistake, correct the mistake, make it clear going forward, absolutely, but don't wipe out 30 years of having made that mistake and just pretend it never happened.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

I appreciate your perspective, and I appreciate your passion in this role. I know that you're very balanced in your compliments and the challenges that you're facing. I just want to point out that I appreciate that.

This was brought up by the vets themselves. Did they bring this to your attention, or was this something that you happened to come by through your research and through your daily role as the ombud?

9:35 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

I have travelled all across this country. We've been to every single military base in Canada. We have met veterans in that area and spoken with commanders. Veterans say these things to me in the margins of my town halls. They bring it to my attention.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

We talked about how, if the Liberal government were to do this, it would be unprecedented. The respect that vets have would be lost because it's about integrity and “your word is your bond” in the military. We've talked about that.

I have so many questions. I'm struggling to figure out which one I want to go with first. I'm dealing with the emotional.... The loss that would happen if.... This is sanctuary trauma for veterans. I checked online last night to see what the temperature was in the Northwest Territories. It was -21°C and -26°C with the wind chill. I think about vets who live up there and can't afford the cost of living. It's more expensive up there to deal with.

What do you think is the way forward for VAC and for this government in order to correct this?

9:35 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

I believe that just removing the retroactivity provision would go a long way toward helping veterans see that they can trust the department to own up to a mistake.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

I'm struggling with the answers that I received from the minister earlier. Did the answer that she provided line up with...? Is it satisfactory for your recommendation and does it answer your letter?

9:35 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

I have not received a response from the minister to my letter, but I can say to you—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Ms. Jardine, we'll have to end this round here.

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

We will continue with Mr. Leitão for six minutes, please.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

Good afternoon, madam, sir. Thank you for your service and for continuing to serve here today in bringing forward the concerns and needs of Canadian veterans. Thank you for doing it the way you do.

I'm going to continue along the same lines. You just mentioned to our colleague that you hadn't received a response to your letter from the minister. Is that correct?

9:35 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Okay.

You also mentioned that the vast majority of veterans were well served by the department, but that a small group that didn't feel well served contacted you. This group mainly highlights the issue at hand here, which is the provision's retroactivity.

If I understand correctly, changing the definition of “province” and removing territories from the equation will lead to an increase in fees for veterans.

Does this apply to all veterans, or is this cost increase only significant for veterans living in the territories in question?

9:40 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

First of all, it's not a small group. I want to make that clear. I did not say “small”. It is not a small group. There is a majority who are well served, and there is a cohort that is not. I want to make that really clear. The number of complaints to my office over the five years that I've been here has gone up significantly.

My understanding of the accommodations and meals calculation is that it's very complex. The bottom line is that the department must consider and look at all of the costs for accommodations and meals for long-term care, and the legislation says “province”. The Interpretation Act says that the word “province”, if not otherwise defined in that act, must include the territories. It so happens that the rate for accommodations and meals for at least the past 20 years or so has been lower in one of the territories, which means that the veterans who are eligible for long-term care paid for by the department—it's not every veteran and there are criteria—have paid more for accommodations and meals than they should have.

This is going over 30 years. We've not done the investigation into the numbers. The department can give you that answer. Over 30 years, there are, I'm sure, thousands of elderly and the most disabled veterans who have paid more for their accommodations and meals than they should have, according to the law. VAC made a mistake in that calculation.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

What I was trying to understand is whether they have paid more regardless of where they actually—

9:40 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

Absolutely, it's regardless of where they live.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Okay. That's what I was trying to get at. Thank you.

What bothers you and many veterans is the fact that clauses 373 to 375 contain a retroactive provision. As the department corrects the situation going forward, what is most unfair, in your view and in the view of the veterans affected, is the fact that whatever was done over the past 30 years doesn't count. Is that the main point of dispute?

9:40 a.m.

Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

Nishika Jardine

The point of my appearance here today is to say to you that redefining this mistake over 30 years and making this clarification, as the government has put it, is fine. However, to go back 30 years and say, “No, we always meant it to be this. Even though it wasn't written in the law, this is what was meant,” is patently unfair and wrong, in my view.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Understood. Thank you.

I also have issues with retroactivity. In fiscal issues, it's not common. I think there are ways of settling that. I will continue to follow that up, you can be sure of that.

I have another question, if I may.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

You have 10 seconds.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Oh. Well, thank you.