Evidence of meeting #23 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was answer.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Would it be possible for you to follow up on this? We would be grateful.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Yes, we will do that.
I was telling you that from memory to be sure I could answer your question.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You asked me about the cost of the electricity tax credit. I can tell you that in 2026–2027—
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
No, I was referring more to the tax credit granted to oil companies that use nuclear power plants.
Can you also provide us with specific information on this? What does the department have planned?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
We are always willing to look into this. However, I am not sure we have enough details. We will certainly try to see what we can do to answer your question.
Bloc
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. Garon.
We will continue now with Ms. Cobena for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Minister, as you know, you changed the definitions of operating expenses and capital investments in the budget. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has done an indepth analysis of this. Of course, many Canadians are very concerned with this new definition. The budget itself—your budget, actually—shows how the provinces don't do it; Singapore doesn't do it. Nor do the U.K. and others. The PBO has called for an independent expert body to police the numbers because of concerns around this new definition. Have you considered appointing an independent expert body?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
We always listen to the comments of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. You're right. Our capital budgeting process has attracted a lot of attention. I can tell you that there are many jurisdictions that are looking at the Canadian definition and, I would say, like it. Therefore, I would look more at other international bodies to comment on what Canada is doing.
By the way, it doesn't change; it's an addition. The deficit is the deficit. In whatever column you put it, it doesn't change the calculation.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
I'm sorry. Can you just focus on the question itself? Will you be appointing an independent expert body?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
It's not part of our plan now, I can tell you, because what we're doing is in addition to what was presented. It doesn't change in any way the Public Accounts of Canada. As I said, it's an addition. If anyone doesn't like the presentation, they can just look at the bottom line, and they'll see that the deficit is the deficit.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
When you actually, in fact, use the definition outlined by public accounts, there is a misrepresentation of $94 billion. It is a big number, which is why the PBO requested an independent body to police the numbers. Would you consider that to ensure that there is transparency and fiscal integrity in the numbers?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Well, there is certainly integrity, because it doesn't change the number. You are talking about the presentation, and I would say it is in addition to what existed, so people can still see, from year to year, the evolution of the numbers.
What we tried was more transparent, and the IMF even commented on it and complimented Canada for the work we have been doing compared to other G7 countries.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Minister, I don't want to focus on the IMF, but the IMF itself also said, “The definition of capital spending remains broad”.
Just to get back to the definition of tax credit subsidies, corporate welfare would be considered a capital investment. Obviously, that's not the case. One example is that the country is going to be spending on security for FIFA. That would be a capital investment. There will be no capital formation, so you can understand the concern around that. Why refuse the independent expert body?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
It's a way to present the numbers, but it's in addition to what already exists. It doesn't change, in any form, the public accounts of Canada. It's an addition. It's a way of presenting it. The deficit numbers are deficit numbers.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
The answer is no, then. You won't be appointing them.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
That's not part of our current plans.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Okay.
Some of my constituents had some questions. They obviously don't have access to you, so if I may, I will ask some of their questions.
My constituent Lorna has a question for you. She wants me to kindly ask you, the finance minister, to look her grandchildren and her children in the eye, explain why you're racking up debt in Canada and tell them how much debt they will inherit.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you.
I want to thank her, and if I have the chance to go to your riding, I'd like to go knock on her door and provide the answer to her in person.
I would say that she should see the budget as an investment in her children. By growing the economy—
Conservative
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
That's what I was saying. Because we are growing the economy, her children will be better off.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
The economy is under a recession watch, though. For two out of the last three quarters, GDP has been contracting. How much will the debt be?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
That's what I was trying to explain. This is a moment when you need to invest to grow the economy. It's not a time to look down—