Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was health.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Holmes  Executive Director, Business Enablement and Regulatory Services, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Laforce  Director General, Department of Health
Coulombe  Director General, Legislation, Sales Tax Division, Department of Finance
Brown  Senior Director, Financial Sector Integrity and National Security, Department of Finance
Marion  Senior Director, Payments Policy, Financial Services Division, Department of Finance
Countryman  Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations, Department of Finance
Maxson  Senior Director, Employment and Education, Personal Income Tax Division, Department of Finance
Hancey  Director, Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Department of Health
Heath MacDonald  Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Marjorie Michel  Minister of Health
Patty Hajdu  Minister of Jobs and Families
Groen  Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development
Janeiro  Director, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Centre for Caregiving Excellence
Saunders  Chief Executive Officer, Community Living Toronto
Haan  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work
Willbond  Chief Accessibility Officer, March of Dimes Canada
MacKenzie  National Director, Public Affairs, Advocacy, and Strategic Communications, March of Dimes Canada

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Actually, we're communicating this in alignment with the advice and feedback that we'd received from building trades professionals, including unions, which said that the way the grant and completion contributions are designed is critically important to helping people through the Red Seal skilled trades.

Indeed, I did say that. I said that there was a relatively low take-up of completion grants. This redesign is really focused on what building trades professionals and trainers have told us will be most useful to helping people through the pipeline of training.

We want to make sure that what we're doing works—

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I'll jump in again, Minister, because I have a couple of questions more that I want to ask.

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

—and that's how we designed it, in partnership with stakeholders.

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I think that, in the future, it would be better for people who are pursuing these careers not to have to deal with this abruptness. If you want to change the program, I think there's logic to that. However, having it end and then announcing it as if it's something new, I think, causes confusion and disruption for people who are trying to plan.

I also want to ask about trades workers. I'm very concerned about the jobs numbers as they relate to the areas in which trades workers are working. We need more trades workers, and we also need opportunities, places for apprentices to work.

You talked about how apprentices are struggling to find jobs. I'd draw your attention to the fact that, in the latest jobs numbers, in one month we lost 16,000 jobs in construction alone. Generally, we're seeing very heavy job losses in goods-producing sectors and natural resources, despite promises and announcements from government. We're shedding jobs in these key areas.

On this side of the table, we want to see more training opportunities and we want to see more work for apprentices. What's your reaction to the significant losses in jobs—for instance, in construction—that we're seeing?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

In fact, what we're largely hearing—especially from major projects proponents like the Canadian Home Builders' Association and a number of employers across the country that are getting big projects off the ground—is that one limiting factor will be skilled trades workers. We have worked very closely not only with unions and labour groups but also with employer groups, including for major projects, to understand what that pattern of employment looks like.

This is clear: We have a shortage of skilled tradespeople across this country. This has been noted a number of times, including by members of your party. This particular approach is about ensuring that small and medium-sized businesses, which often—

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Minister, could I clarify, in the brief time I have left, that I'm not disagreeing with you that we need more trades workers? However, we also need more trades work, because apprentices need opportunities and places to use their skills so that they're ready to fill the workforce gaps we are going to see, especially as many older trades workers retire.

What's your response to the fact that we lost 16,000 construction jobs in the last month? What are the challenges we're going to see around apprentices' finding opportunities, in light of how, under your watch, youth unemployment is at 14.3%, especially in these goods-producing sectors? It's a high level of unemployment.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. That concludes your time.

Mr. Lavoie, you now have the floor for six minutes.

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, Mr. Groen and Mr. Thompson, thank you for joining us. I'm happy to see you here today.

I would like to talk about companies, artificial intelligence and the fast‑changing trades.

In my former life, I sometimes noticed gaps within small and medium‑sized businesses. Companies that use artificial intelligence are using it more and more, while others aren't using it at all. So there are gaps. Some jobs will need to take a different shape or will disappear, while others will emerge.

Which sectors or professions do you think will need to change, or which sectors will need to adapt or create new trades?

New jobs are being created in connection with artificial intelligence. When computers first appeared, some jobs disappeared, but others were created. Tell me a bit about this evolution.

First, I would like to ask you another question. We've just been hearing about the Red Seal.

Can you explain to the average person what the Red Seal is? You can then answer my first question.

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Thank you for the question.

Red Seal endorsements are granted to designated professions in all provinces and territories. There are 54 Red Seal designations. They range from construction occupations to automotive, aviation and other transportation technician occupations.

There are other Red Seals as well. There are a number of Red Seals that are very specific in terms of technical trades. These are all occupations that are agreed upon by provinces and territories, and they allow for the designate to have better labour mobility across provincial territories, as those Red Seals are recognized by each other's provinces as being proficient.

For example, if you're a heavy equipment operator or a crane operator in Ontario and you have your Red Seal designation, you can also work in Quebec, Alberta or Manitoba. Your designation declares that you are a professional in that area.

They are complex positions. They often take three to five years to complete. It's a combination of in-class study and hours that you achieve on the work site with a designated journeyperson, who supervises you and teaches you increasingly complex skills. That's what a Red Seal professional is.

Thank you for the question. Many people don't know that, and it's an important question. You can see all the designated Red Seals online at the Government of Canada website.

In reference to your first question, it's difficult to project which jobs are going to be fully displaced and which jobs are going to be changed. There are a bunch of different conjectures out there in terms of what is happening. Regardless, what we're seeing is that every job is seeing some introduction of the use of artificial intelligence and technological skills, even in the Red Seals.

I'll give you an example. In days gone by, a crane operator would have to manually calculate his load and then manually figure out how to lift that load, using complex skills way beyond my ability. Now much of the equipment that construction workers might use as heavy equipment operators has an element of automation and an element of computation that's happening on a computer within that particular machinery. Does that mean that the individual is not needed? No, it does not, but it does mean that the job is changing and that the skills that person is training for are changing. We're seeing that across a number of different sectors.

The last thing I'll say is that this is why our programs, especially around skilled work placements for young people whose course of study is matched with a paid work experience, are so valuable. It's because employers say that they give them an opportunity to train for what they need at the moment, and this is often way ahead of what the curriculum says. In fact, young people will say that they sometimes go back to the classroom and say, “That's not quite how it's happening in real life”, so it provides a good feedback loop for trainers as well.

Thank you for the question.

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

In your introduction, you spoke of 100,000 new workers, 100,000 positions and many new trades.

I'm asking the question as a father of two children, one aged 19 and the other aged 20. They're trying to find their way in their career and lives.

How can we ensure that all this money, for all these positions, for all the support being provided, won't just sit on the shelf and that we'll be able to reach young people?

I'm talking about young people, but it can also be people going through a career change.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

We need to work with the provinces, territories, employers, unions and institutions that provide the workforce for young people such as your children. It's the same for me.

My youngest son found his way into trades in a partnership with the high school and the local community college—

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

I apologize, Minister. That concludes the time.

Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Congratulations, Ms. Hajdu. Thank you for responding in French. I appreciate it.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I'm trying.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

It's great.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.

Mr. Lemire, you now have the floor for six minutes.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Good evening, Ms. Hajdu.

Thank you for joining us to answer our questions.

In the economic update, specifically in chapter 2, on page 110, a section explains in detail what “improving services to Canadians” means. The section states as follows:

Funding proposed for ESDC to support the day‑to‑day operation of the new old age security platform and to increase old age security processing capacity, helping ensure seniors receive their benefits accurately and on time, and for CRA to maintain a complement of agents at its call centres, and to implement a new telephony platform, which will allow Canadians to more easily connect with the CRA on enquiries related to their benefits and taxes.

I would like to ask you a question that I've asked you in question period on more than one occasion.

Should this amount be added to the $6.6 billion already earmarked for the Cúram program?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

No. Quite frankly, this is a separate amount that helps with the modernization of the function of these benefits but, ultimately, the process of modernization is under budget and is moving along according to plan.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You said that the funding is going well and that additional amounts are still planned. I attended the technical briefing a number of weeks ago.

How many cases are still in the pipeline and awaiting a response from your department?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Of the 7.7 million Canadians who are receiving benefits, we still have 48,000 new applicants who are waiting for their claims to be processed. These 48,000 applicants, though, are not a monolithic group of people. In some cases, they are people who are working very hard to establish residency in Canada, because there are periods of time when residency is required to be eligible. It will affect people's OAS periods. The department and the staff are working diligently with the cases that are still waiting for assessment, and that number continues to track downwards.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

In a previous response, Mr. Groen, you said that 97.5% of payments were accurate. If we're talking about $7.7 million in payments each month for old age security, this means that 192,500 payments contain errors each month.

Who corrects these errors? Is this accounted for in the operating costs of the old age security program?

Is this what accounts for the additional $473 million?

Cliff Groen Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you for the question.

We have accuracy targets for all our benefit programs. This process has been in place for decades. The Office of the Auditor General of Canada audits it every year.

These targets, which we have for each of the major benefit programs—employment insurance, Canada pension plan and old age security—seek to obtain an accuracy rate of 95%. That's our target.

As you said, we managed to obtain a rate of 97.4% for old age security. It's a bit higher for the Canada pension plan, and a bit lower for the employment insurance program. However, it's still quite close to our target. This process is based on how other countries pay out these major benefits.

Payment errors can occur for a number of reasons.

First, Service Canada may make errors. However, the vast majority of errors are the result of a lack of information. Some clients also make errors, even though they don't mean to.

When we discover a payment error, we take the necessary steps to have it corrected.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Could you give us a list of the Cúram‑related computer issues that you resolved and the issues that remain unresolved and that are still causing problems?

6:05 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development

Cliff Groen

Yes, but I need to make one key point.

You just asked me a question about the accuracy rate.

I think that the committee must understand that the vast majority of errors that occurred before and after the introduction of the new computer program weren't caused by the management of the system.

We can certainly give the committee information on the types of errors that we find in the system.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Basically, the biggest errors in benefit payments date back to at least June of last year. We were talking about 90,000 cases, 80,000 cases, over 60,000 cases as well.

How many cases remain unresolved? Since last June, how many people have been waiting a year for their benefits?