Evidence of meeting #5 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was garon.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

François-Philippe Champagne  Minister of Finance and National Revenue
Keesmaat  President and Chief Executive Officer, Collecdev-Markee, As an Individual
Cape  Chief Executive Officer, Assembly Corp.
Lyall  President, Residential Construction Council of Ontario

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Good morning. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Today’s meeting is being held in a hybrid format.

I would like to remind participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you are participating via video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. For members participating in person or via Zoom, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The committee clerks and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated speaking order. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on September 22, 2025, the committee is undertaking its study of the 2025-26 budgetary cycle.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 12, 2025, and the motion adopted on September 22, 2025, the committee shall resume consideration of Bill C‑4, An Act respecting certain affordability measures for Canadians and another measure.

I would like to welcome the witnesses.

We welcome the honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. François‑Philippe Champagne, and the deputy minister of finance, Mr. Chris Forbes.

Mr. Champagne, you have the floor.

11 a.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Finance and National Revenue

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is a privilege to appear before you today.

I would like to congratulate all my colleagues on their appointment to the Standing Committee on Finance.

Colleagues, first of all, let me thank you for inviting me to speak today.

I want to thank the committee, because it is important to have an open and regular dialogue between the Minister of Finance and the Standing Committee on Finance.

As you know, Bill C‑4 contains several pieces of good news for Canadians. I would like to take a few moments today to discuss this bill and talk about how future federal budgets will help build on the momentum of Bill C‑4.

Faced with the economic uncertainty caused by a very fast-changing global order, Canadians have called for a serious plan to address this new economic landscape and the rising cost of living. I said that in a press conference: I think it's the speed, scale and scope of the change in the world economic order that really mandate that we do things differently in this country.

They've asked for change that puts more money in their pockets, builds the strongest economy in the G7 and builds one Canadian economy, not 13. With Bill C-4, our new government is delivering on that mandate for change. With our upcoming budget, we will seize upon a generational opportunity to transform the Canadian economy, through ambitious investments and a rigorous expense review, so that we can spend less and invest more.

Our government is committed to building, protecting and strengthening the Canadian economy and empowering Canadians across the country. This includes ambitious investments in workers, industries and communities across the country.

Bill C-4 received unanimous consent at second reading. I want to thank colleagues. There are not many things that go on in this House with unanimous consent, but everyone agreed that this was the right thing to do for Canadians. We have a package of affordability measures for Canadians, which is going to be transformational for our country. I want to thank all of you for voting in favour of it.

From a middle-class tax cut, which is saving money for 22 million Canadians, to eliminating the GST for first-time buyers on new homes of up to $1 million and removing the federal consumer fuel charge from law, this legislation will put more money in Canadians' pockets.

I should also mention that we heard concerns regarding unintended consequences of the tax cuts on some disability tax credit recipients. I can assure you, Madam Chair, that we are working on resolving them.

To build upon the momentum of Bill C-4, on November 4, I'll be tabling budget 2025.

Today, I am pleased to inform members of some fundamental changes to our government’s approach to budgeting that will help us deliver more results for Canadians.

What we're proposing is a new way forward on budgeting. The global economy has changed, as I said, and Canada must change with it. We're responding with generational investments that build bigger and better at home. The urgency of this moment demands new ways of budget planning, and that's exactly what we're doing.

The cornerstone of this new approach is a capital budgeting framework that distinguishes and enables the government to prioritize spending that stimulates public and private sector capital investment versus day-to-day operational spending. This will mean more transparent decision-making and more taxpayer dollars allocated to investments that will grow our economic potential.

Going forward, the Government of Canada will also adopt a fall budget cycle, starting with budget 2025. The fall timing, before the main estimates, will facilitate the oversight and study of public expenditures for parliamentarians, inherently making the process more transparent. It will also support effective financial planning for federal departments and agencies, provinces and territories and Canadian businesses and organizations, allowing for more informed decision-making on where public funds will have the most impact.

This updated budget cycle will more closely align with construction season and provide increased certainty and predictability for businesses and investors. Spring budgets often didn't allow projects to take full advantage of the construction season. A fall budget cycle changes that, giving builders and investors a real head start.

The new fall budget will be followed by a spring economic and fiscal update as the new fiscal year begins, as well as pre-budget consultations over the course of the summer, as we did this year.

Holding these consultations during the summer will give us more time to develop budgets that better reflect the priorities of Canadians—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Minister, your five minutes are up. Could you wrap it up, please?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I just have one minute left. I'm happy to extend my stay by one minute.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Yes, please go on.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Holding these consultations during the summer will give us more time to develop budgets that better reflect Canadians’ priorities. To that end, recent consultations were held in 26 cities across the country in July and August. They resulted in 50 round tables and 60 bilateral meetings.

In making these changes, Madam Chair, I would remind the committee that we are, in fact, implementing recommendations made to the government by various parliamentary committees and the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

In conclusion, our government has a plan to build a new Canadian economy—the strongest economy in the G7 and one that works for everyone. Bill C-4 was an important first step in the plan, and budget 2025 will be a historic next step. I look forward to releasing our full plan on November 4, with budget 2025.

Thank you for your indulgence, Madam Chair. I look forward to the questions from my colleagues.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you so much, Minister Champagne.

We will now begin our rounds of questioning.

Mr. Hallan, you have six minutes for the Conservatives.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, what are your fiscal anchors?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, I would like to say thank you to the member of the committee. It's a real pleasure to see him.

We have been very clear during the campaign that we will be balancing the operating budget in the next three years.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Is that your fiscal anchor?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

That is a fiscal anchor that we have been talking about and have put in the platform.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Are there more?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

We said that there would be a declining deficit-to-GDP ratio over the same period.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Okay.

Regarding the deficit-to-GDP ratio that you're claiming is supposed to decline, the PBO says that he doesn't think so. He doesn't even think that you have fiscal anchors right now. Is he right?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Different parliamentary budget officers have had different views than the one you're referring to now.

Madam Chair, Canadians should rejoice, because Canada has a very strong fiscal position. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7. We have the lowest deficit-to-GDP ratio in the G7, and we are one of only two countries in the G7 that have a AAA credit rating.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

I'm sorry, Minister, but sticking with the deficit-to-GDP ratio, it was supposed to be 1%. It is doubled right now. You're saying that it's supposed to decline. It doesn't look like it's going to decline.

According to the PBO, you are going to have 80% higher deficits, and the economy is shrinking. How do you square that? How do you square having higher deficits and a shrinking economy? Your deficit-to-GDP ratio is already double what you claimed it was supposed to be. How is it supposed to decline?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, perhaps I have more confidence in Canadians and the Canadian economy than my colleague does.

Canada is in a very enviable fiscal position. When you look at the G7, Madam Chair—and I attend these meetings; I chair them—you see our colleagues say that Canada has a very stable fiscal position. We have the means of our ambition and we're going to seize that generational opportunity.

I would argue that having the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio and the lowest deficit-to-GDP ratio in the G7, plus a AAA credit rating, is a pretty enviable position. I know you're the official critic for finance, so you would know that.

Only Germany has a AAA credit rating in the G7. Canada is one of them. We have a very strong fiscal position.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Canada has the fastest-shrinking economy in the G7. Saying that we have a AAA credit rating is almost like a participation ribbon right now for Canadians waiting in food bank lines, because they're the ones who are suffering with your government's spending.

Again, you didn't answer the question specifically. You're claiming that the deficit-to-GDP ratio is going to be going down, but there are no specifics. Are you saying that in this fantasy budget somehow the GDP is going to massively grow at the same time as having deficits that are going to be 80% higher than what even Justin Trudeau had, which is surprising?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I think it's pretty offensive for Canadians who are listening this morning to your comments, because Canadians will be reminded that your government, your party—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

I'll correct you, Minister, because it's what the PBO said about your ratio. He said that your ratio is “very alarming”, “stupefying”, “shocking” and “unsustainable”. That's what the PBO said. We agree, and Canadians agree. Do you agree?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say there is a.... Kevin Page said, and I quote, Madam Chair—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Is the PBO lying?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Do you want me to answer? Otherwise, I'm happy to listen to your questions all day, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

It was a yes-or-no answer, Minister.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

But if you want me to answer—