Finance Committee on Oct. 6th, 2025

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Actually, what he said is the reflection.... I so wish he could be at the G7 meetings with me, because he would say what colleagues are doing. We have the most stable fiscal position in the G7.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Okay, Minister.

You're not answering the question, so we'll try a different question, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio and the lowest deficit-to-GDP ratio. You should at least tell Canadians as it is, sir. Those are facts.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Minister—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You can have your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. The facts are what they are, sir.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Indeed.

Minister, it's a fact that the budget—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We have a AAA credit rating like Germany.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

The current budget deficit is projected to be.... Your current budget deficit does not even include NATO commitments. The C.D. Howe Institute, for example, stated that if we start to include the commitments you've made publicly, the deficit may be as high as $90 billion. Is that correct? Will it be over $90 billion if you keep some of your spending promises?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Are you suggesting that we should not meet our NATO commitments to defend the sovereignty of Canada?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

No, I'm suggesting that you should answer a question.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The answer is very clear. We're going to meet our NATO commitments. We're going to invest in the sovereignty of Canada. Canadians understand that the world is changing and that we need to make these generational investments.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Minister. I want to go back to my questions for a moment.

According to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, if the government continues its trend of increasing the debt-to-GDP ratio, the outlook is very alarming. Should Canadians be alarmed about this? We are also very alarmed about the increase in the ratio.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I can tell you that Canada is in the most enviable position in the G7.

This is what CBC News Online reported about Kevin Page:

“Page didn't disagree with the recent PBO report, but he argued Canada is fiscally 'in a pretty good place' relative to other G7 countries.” I'm just reading from the article.

What you're saying is that—

Excuse me, I will continue in French.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Minister. Understood.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre. Your time is up until the next round.

We're now going to go to Mr. Turnbull for five minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for being here, and to the deputy minister as well.

Minister, I'm struggling here, because opposition members are saying that somehow we haven't done comprehensive consultation. I can assure them—just ask my wife for a testimony about how little I was home for the summer as we travelled across the country and met with so many stakeholders—that this was a highly comprehensive approach, in my view, to consultation.

What I think the members are suggesting, though, is that they have not taken the opportunity to use this committee's time to do pre-budget consultations, which was their choice, not our choice, because we actually suggested that our committee could be undertaking that work currently, but, as Mr. MacDonald suggested, we have spent the last month on other topics.

Bill C-4 is certainly important, but before I get there, I want to ask you a little about the new capital budgeting framework and the new budget cycle.

First of all, we consulted with the PBO. Is that correct?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Yes, we consulted with the Auditor General and we have.... If I may, I just want to thank you and your family, Mr. Turnbull, because I know this summer has been very busy. I understand your feeling because, for me as well, when 83,722 people took the time to submit an online survey, it's surprising to hear some of the comments. What would you say to these 80,000 people who took the time to do that? Their voices matter. They voiced that, and they provided us with the information. There were 50 round tables, 57 bilats, 20 cities, 13 provinces and one federal-provincial-territorial meeting. I mean, this has been a consultation that I haven't seen in a long time. I want to thank you, because you've been so instrumental.

To your point, I think the committee members will have the opportunity to do that next summer. It's going to be great. They'll be busy all summer if they wish to go around the country and listen to witnesses to inform the budget. However, to suggest that there have not been budget consultations.... You would know, because you did it yourself, and your family paid quite a heavy price with your having to travel across the country to do that. I understand how you feel.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Minister. I believe it was a very comprehensive process.

We also released detailed and clear definitions of “capital investments” today, did we not?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Yes, we did a press release today. We've been very clear on what is going to be capital formation. I would say, Mr. Turnbull, Canadians understand that. As I said, when you pay your bills, you spend. When you buy a house, you invest. For me, that's why I don't understand some of the comments that were made earlier, because, as Mr. Leitão, the former finance minister of Quebec, said, by having more transparency and clarity for parliamentarians, we're actually ensuring what Parliament asked us to do. They said, “Change the budget cycle.” Then, what we heard from business was, “Provide us the predictability we need. We'd like to know in advance what you're going to put in the budget so we can plan accordingly.” Then, one thing that parliamentarians wish is to match the construction season and the time we need to do that.

For me, it's telling Canadians in a very clear way, “This is where your money is going. This is for capital formation. This is for operating expenses.” I think my Conservative colleagues and the Bloc should be celebrating that we're providing that kind of transparency.

Just so we're clear with Canadians, this is not replacing; it is adding. It is adding a lens so that people can see.... When they open the budget, they can say, “Okay, I understand where my money's going.” Then, everything else will be in accordance with all the accounting standards that we have always used for budgeting in Canada.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

When I knock on doors in my riding and talk to my constituents, they all say the same thing: They want a growing, strong economy in Canada. They want jobs for their kids. They want affordable housing. To me, what we're entering into here is a budget cycle and a capital budgeting framework, and we're making these changes to focus on something we call “capital formation”.

How is that going to help our economy grow?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

This is fundamental to the future of our nation. You know, the world is changing. We need to adapt. As I said, the speed, scale and scope of the changes are once in a generation. I think, as parliamentarians—it's not just the government, but I look to my colleagues on both sides of the aisle—we need to meet that moment.

People before us have met the moment. I think that, in 1945, people met the moment. Canadians instinctively understand that, when faced with something like that, you need to invest. You need to reduce your expenses. That's why we say we're going to spend less so we can invest more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

I'm sorry, Minister, but that is the time for this round. Thank you.

Colleagues, in looking at the clock, we don't have time for another full round, but if colleagues are interested, we could do a condensed round with two and a half minutes each to the Conservatives and the Liberals, and one and a half minutes to the Bloc. Do I see agreement for that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Cobena.

[Sandra Cobena, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Minister, I'd like to have a frank discussion with you—just simple questions, simple answers.

You say you want to change how you budget, and I have to ask myself, “Why not change your reckless spending instead?” If I say to my husband that buying too many purses is an investment, that doesn't change the fact that it is irresponsible. My question for you is, why are you changing how you present the budget, rather than changing your reckless spending so that, on a net basis, you actually balance it?