Finance Committee on Oct. 6th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

I would ask members and the minister not to talk over each other, for the sake of the interpreters.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I'll take that to mean that bankers and bond holders will once again get more money in interest payments on this government's debt, from Canadian taxpayers, than what goes to health care transfers.

Minister, in September 2023, you made a big spectacle. You were going to haul in all the grocery store CEOs, and you claimed that, by Thanksgiving 2023, grocery prices would come down. Two years later—it's almost Thanksgiving 2025—grocery inflation has skyrocketed due to Liberal grocery tax, other taxes and the amount of money that you guys spent. On top of all that, we see that overall grocery price inflation has increased to almost 7%. Ground beef is up 30% since then; apples are up almost 40%; tomatoes are up 15%; chicken is up 20%. Food prices are rising 50% faster in Canada than in the U.S.

When will food prices and grocery prices come down?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say, Madam Chair, to Canadians who are watching that I invite the member to vote in favour of Bill C-4, which provides a middle-class tax cut to 22 million Canadians, and—

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Will Bill C-4 lower grocery prices, yes or no?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I could not hear the question, Madam Chair, because I was talking while the member was asking me to respond.

I would invite all the members—and I'm sure, because he's a very influential member of the Conservative caucus, that he can convince his colleagues—to vote for Bill C-4, because it will reduce taxes for 22 million Canadians. That is the kind of measure that puts more money in the pockets of Canadians, and that's the kind of affordability measure that Canadians will be wanting.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I will also be asking questions. I have a few minutes left.

Minister, you said that several round tables were held over the summer. Today is October 6, and the budget will be tabled on November 4. It will be ready for printing in two weeks. That means the budget must be 90% complete.

What is the purpose of the Standing Committee on Finance? Why are we here if no opposition members were able to participate in the meetings you held as part of the consultations?

You say that Canadians have been busy. You tell us that we have an important role to play as members of the Standing Committee on Finance. We have been talking about respect for some time now, and you are a politician for whom I have a great deal of respect.

Now, I would like to know how you show respect for the members of the Standing Committee on Finance.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You should be pleased that we are setting the record straight. We are responding to the committee’s request to change the budgetary cycle. The Parliamentary Budget Officer asked us…. You were not in Parliament at the time, but a report from the Standing Committee on Finance asked us to change the cycle. I consulted with the provinces, I consulted with people in your part of the country. Contractors want more predictability when it comes to construction.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Minister, today is October 6—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You will have the entire summer to conduct consultations. You had the entire summer to do so. We did our part. It is up to you to decide when you want to consult with people. We did it this summer.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

What you are telling us is that you are doing this on your own and that this committee does not need to hold consultations.

Is that really what you are telling me?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

It’s up to you to choose how you do things.

Mr. Lefebvre, you should be happy today. I know the people in your community. I know quite a few of them. The people in your constituency are saying today that it’s a good thing that we are aligning ourselves with Quebec, that we are aligning ourselves with the construction season.

As a member of Parliament, you are just starting out here in the House of Commons—

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Minister—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

When you vote on the budget appropriations, you will have a clearer picture because you will know what is in the budget. You should be pleased.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Minister, as my speaking time is very limited, I would like to return to the questions I have for you.

To help our listeners understand the situation, I would like to point out that the role of the Parliamentary Budget Officer is to provide non-partisan, neutral and independent economic and financial analysis. In your opinion, does Mr. Jacques have the necessary skills to do this job?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

He is entitled to his opinion. What I have seen is that—

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I’m asking you if you think he has the skills—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre. Your speaking time is up.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Saved by the bell, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

He is entitled to his opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you.

I will now go to Kent MacDonald.

Mr. MacDonald, you have five minutes, please.

[Kent MacDonald, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Minister Champagne and deputy minister, thank you for being here today.

I think Canadians know which parties have been stalling and grandstanding. We've been here for almost a month, and we could have heard from stakeholders, but because of the games that have been played, we haven't had that ability.

I'll pose this question to the minister today: What are the cornerstones of this upcoming budget, with your new way of framing expenses to capital investments versus to operating costs? How will this help both the government and private organizations, particularly those in the construction trade, to invest in Canada and help build the strongest economy in the G7?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll say thank you to Mr. MacDonald and to Prince Edward Island. We're all happy that the federal, provincial and territorial group of finance ministers was chaired by Prince Edward Island.

I did inform the chair this morning of our new way of doing this. I think it's very simple. The world is changing at a pace that we have rarely seen before. The speed, the scale and the scope of the change require that we adapt. Today, it gives us an opportunity to focus on our core objective, which is to spend less so we can invest more. That's why we're presenting a new capital budgeting framework and a new budget cycle.

The first one responds to clarity, because members of Parliament have been asking us through the committee—and I know the vice-chair will go on the record—to change the budget cycle in order to leave more time for parliamentarians to see the budget when they vote for the main estimates, because the main estimates have to be presented by March 31. There have been instances in the past when the budget came after the main estimates, which is not ideal. We've been asked, and we're responding to that.

The second thing is predictability for a province or a territory or a business. I think about all these organizations in the country that depend on federal funding for their functioning and their operation. They would like to know whether they will be getting funds in the budget ahead of their own fiscal year. Depending on the timing of their fiscal year, it's difficult for them when they don't know what the federal contribution is going to be.

Lastly, Mr. MacDonald, you will understand this because you've been an entrepreneur. You've been very successful, and we're lucky to have you in Parliament now. If there's one thing that doesn't wait for parliamentarians, it's the construction season. That won't be a surprise to our friends from Alberta, because in Alberta and in different parts of the country, I've heard from people who ask me—and I was the infrastructure minister before—if I can align our decisions with the construction season. If a budget is presented in the spring, for example, and you need to build in the north, you need to book the barge a year in advance. If you can't book that, if you can't book your workers and you cannot have requests for proposals from entrepreneurs by that time, it's too late. We can't afford as a nation to miss another construction season. We can't afford that. We need to make generational investments in our future.

That's why this framework will help us to focus on what matters, prioritize our investments and be more transparent to Canadians. That's why you have seen provinces and groups thanking us for changing that. Even the vice-chair of the committee would agree. That's what we've been asked for, and we're responding to the wishes of Parliament. For me, it's about setting the clock straight.

After that, the committee and the chair will have to decide when you do your budget consultation. We will certainly do that all through the summer, and we do that all year. I want to thank Mr. Turnbull for all the work he's done this summer.

One thing that is slightly offensive is to say that we haven't consulted. This is probably the largest public consultation for a budget that we have seen in the last 10 years. Therefore, I think this is going to be welcomed by Canadians. They want more transparency and more clarity. I think that presenting the difference in terms of where their money goes with respect to capital investment and day-to-day spending is adding. That's why I don't understand the criticism from my Conservative colleagues, because this is adding. It's not replacing. It's just providing a new lens. I can tell you that the deficit and the debt will be recorded in the same manner as in previous budgets, but this is going to provide an additional lens so that more information is provided to people. As parliamentarians, we should all welcome that.

[Kent MacDonald, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Minister, can you speak to how your department is working to scale up prefab and industrialized construction methods in smaller jurisdictions, like Atlantic Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

You have 15 seconds, please.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you for that. I think all members would be happy to hear that.

We need to do things differently. We need to build more homes. The three things that Canadians have told us during the summer—and I'm sure it's the same thing for Mr. Garon, who has been listening to many people—