Finance Committee on Oct. 8th, 2025

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

They are not government officials.

[Krista Carr]

—but we also have lots of very public stories that have been published in the media about people working for Veterans Affairs who were suggesting MAID to veterans who were calling for support, so we do have some circumstances of it being government officials. However, 99.9% of the time it's going to be in the health care system for sure.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That would be in the health care system, which is also under provincial jurisdiction. Okay.

Let's get back to Bill C-4. You've raised a very valid point. In fact, Minister Champagne, when he was before this committee, mentioned that he has certainly been made aware of that issue and of the unintended consequences of the tax cuts and that the Department of Finance is working diligently on resolving that issue.

I think, as you also pointed out, that this isn't rocket science. This is something that can be fixed. Having been in government in another sphere, I know that sometimes these things happen. People don't think of all those issues, but again, it can be fixed, and certainly I will commit to you that we will find a way to fix it. It is not, again, rocket science. It can be done and it should be done.

Ms. Lavoie, good day. You represent a very interesting organization.

You mentioned that, in addition to building affordable housing for rent, it was also possible to build affordable homes for home ownership.

We see what's happening in many places across Canada. You represent a Canada-wide organization. Do you see different concerns between Toronto and cities in other provinces, for example with regard to land prices? Do such concerns complicate the availability of affordable housing in certain large cities, particularly Toronto?

[Alana Lavoie]

Yes, absolutely.

In large communities, prices are certainly higher and municipal processes are more complex. Land prices, workers' wages, and family incomes are much higher than in small and medium-sized communities. We also need to look at what is being built and how. For example, in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, large buildings are being constructed. However, for an organization like Habitat for Humanity, it's far more complicated to build a multi-story building, especially with new technologies.

In small communities, the challenge is more about building what people really need. So, for families, we're not going to build micro-condos. Instead, we'll need family or multi-generational homes. We find the challenges related to community relations and construction plans are a little different than in big cities.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I really liked what you said at the start of your presentation, meaning that we need to build homes and build hope. Indeed, that's very important.

One problem that many cities, be they big or small, are experiencing is homelessness.

You're experienced in matters related to access to affordable housing. Could you tell us—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Leitão. Your time is up.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our two panellists, Ms. Carr and Ms. Lavoie, for their presentations.

Ms. Carr, you contacted all the parties on this issue. It's quite obvious; since we're talking about a refundable tax credit, the value of which is calculated as a percentage, with the tax rate being part of the calculation; if the tax rate is cut, the credit shrinks.

It made me rather sad, because I know that the introduction of the disability tax credit was a long and difficult process. This measure was announced almost five years ago, and the legislation only came into force in 2023. Its implementation wasn't easy, and we waited a long time for it. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer worked on it. Yet, now that's finally happened and the needs are being recognized, it's being cut.

I get the impression that, for a long time, it has been difficult for you to make yourselves heard. That is why, last Wednesday, I put the question to the officials who came to testify. There was a wonderful show of openness and, moreover, just before the committee meeting, the minister told us he would be looking into this matter this week.

Has the minister or his office offered you a concrete solution?

[Krista Carr]

I think I got all of that.

No, we haven't yet been contacted.

We certainly have had the opportunity to meet with officials from the Department of Finance. We have met with other officials within government and within other parties.

As I mentioned this week, earlier, we heard, when all of you heard, that there was going to be a fix coming, which is wonderful news. We haven't heard directly from finance what that will be, at this point, but we are hopeful that it will address the issue.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Nonetheless, we need to follow up.

You already have the solution, meaning the tax formula, and I insist you submit it in writing to the committee.

We're aware of the problem you've been facing since June, and it's now October. Nevertheless, you still had trouble making yourselves heard, even though you represent vulnerable people.

Do you think it'd be easier to get a meeting with the minister if you were a bank or an oil company?

[Krista Carr]

I don't know that I'm necessarily qualified to comment on that because I've spent my working life in the non-profit sector.

I find it's always difficult to meet with finance ministers, and I think that's probably because everyone wants to meet with them. It's probably difficult for everyone. I don't know if it would be easier for someone else to meet with the finance minister.

At this point, what I care deeply about is that the finance minister is listening and hearing what we have to say. I'm hopeful that this is what's happening at this point.

I guess that's all I can really comment on.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

You communicated with us, as you did with all parties. You work well and in a non-partisan manner, so you're right to respond in this way. However, I don't work in a non-partisan manner all the time, so I can tell you that if you had been a bank or an oil company, you would have received a call-back in June.

There's a reason for this tax credit. You've been trying to get it for a long time, but it's been an uphill battle.

When it comes to residential real estate investments, the costs of construction, renovation, and property acquisition have risen significantly. That said, other costs have also increased significantly for people with disabilities. I'm not an expert in this area, but I can think, for example, of home modifications, such as putting in elevators and ramps, among other things.

What might the cost increase of modifying a first home for a person with a disability look like? I know there's obviously heterogeneity, that there are all kinds of situations, but what has the cost increase looked like over the past five years?

[Krista Carr]

I couldn't tell you exactly what the cost increase has been. I would say that whether it comes to housing or whether it comes to just living in general, costs have gone up substantially over the last five years in a number of areas. Disproportionately, unfortunately, supports for persons with disabilities, whether in income or otherwise, have not kept pace with that. We have seen the poverty rates for persons with disabilities certainly get worse. It's much, much, much more difficult to live a good life in community with the extra costs that people face already. Then, when disproportionately costs everywhere are going up, including the extra costs of disability, they just compound upon each other. It makes it very difficult.

This is why—I will make the case while I'm here at this committee—we would love to see the Canada disability benefit, which we are very happy about and super grateful for, continue to increase to help Canadians with disabilities offset those costs.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

I understand that we're going back to Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Genuis, I just want to remind you that we are studying Bill C-4. I hope the questions are relevant to the study at hand.

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I was responding to an issue that the witness had raised.

Thank you for the warm welcome. It's good to be back, as you said.

Ms. Carr, I'll go back to you.

I want to talk a bit about affordability and employment. Having access to employment opportunities, wherever possible, is so important for affordability. A few years ago, our leader had a bill aimed at ensuring that people with disabilities were not punished for entering the workforce.

I want to ask if there are particular impacts of the measures in Bill C-4, in terms of what you've talked about, for people who are receiving benefits and are working, and how those things interact with each other. Also, what is your perspective on how we can ensure that the benefits are structured such that people are not punished—that is, they're not worse off—if they enter the workforce?

[Krista Carr]

I would say that certainly the disability tax credit was put in place in the first place to help offset the cost of disability. Obviously, when you're living with a disability and you qualify for the disability tax credit and you earn income, that tax credit makes a big difference. In relation to that, I would just go back to the argument we were just having about making sure that people aren't negatively impacted or disproportionately impacted by a bill that is certainly meant to make life more affordable for all Canadians. We want to make sure that the net effect stays the same.

With regard to disincentives to work, which is what I think you're getting at, it's certainly not necessarily related to this bill, per se, but when we look at things like the Canada disability benefit, for example, and look at the working exemptions and that type of thing, there's a lot work we could do in making sure those exemptions are higher and people can keep more of their money. Especially for persons with disabilities who are trying to get back into the labour market and maybe cannot work full time, those exemptions and those interactions between benefits become really critically important to ensure that people can actually go to work, stay at work and are better off by working.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sadly, in my view, the bill that our leader had put forward in this regard was defeated. It would have been nice for it to at least have been studied at committee and to pass—or at least, if there had been support from other parties, nice for it to get to that stage.

I'd like to give you a chance to share a bit of a message for employers as well. I'm the shadow minister for employment. I talk a lot to employers who tell me about challenges they have in finding people with specific skill sets or in specific areas, even in a time of persistently high unemployment. What would your message be to employers about hiring people with disabilities, if that's not something they've done before or if it's something that maybe seems out of the box compared with what they've done in the past?

[Krista Carr]

I think there are tons of data—I know there are tons of data—that support the fact that people with disabilities enrich workplaces in ways that you would not necessarily always think about. It's in terms of innovation, in terms of creativity, in terms of retention and all of those types of things. It's even in terms of the culture within a workplace and the amount of turnover of other staff who do not have a disability: It's because they're in an inclusive workplace.

At the end of the day, people with disabilities are ready, willing and able to work. They want to work. They want to contribute to society. Oftentimes what they need is someone to give them an opportunity. There are tons of organizations across this country, Inclusion Canada being one of many, that are more than happy to assist and support any employer who wants to start hiring inclusively and bringing the huge and diverse talent pool that is within the disability community into people's workplaces.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm up against the clock a bit, but are there any additional areas where you see barriers to employment for people with disabilities that we could address or propose solutions to?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

We have only about five seconds left for this round, so we'll leave it there.

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We'll go to Mr. MacDonald.

[Kent MacDonald, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today and for sharing this information.

Ms. Lavoie, I really admire the role that Habitat for Humanity plays in helping out with non-profits and homebuilding. I come from P.E.I. I know that you have an active role there in P.E.I. I actually have some acquaintances who have worked on your projects. It's a very worthwhile mission you're on.

Given Habitat for Humanity's mission of enabling home ownership for lower-income households, I'm wondering how you feel about these two measures that we've brought in with Bill C-4, the GST and income tax cut. Is this going to bolster the capacity to build more homes in regions like mine in Atlantic Canada?

[Alana Lavoie]

Regarding the GST, we have an absolute direct correlation with our own ability to build. We know that, as mentioned earlier, with the GST payout that is either not absorbed by Habitat for Humanity affiliate operations or by our families in their mortgages, that gets put right back into our fund for Humanity for building. It goes right back into those. It's combined with ReStore revenues. Everyone should visit a ReStore. Again, it's combined with local donations, and it's combined with a Habitat build gift-in-kind in partnership. Definitely we will see that.

In terms of the income tax cuts that are proposed, I think anything that improves affordability for those with lower income has the potential to put more stable housing within their reach, particularly when combined with the supply-side measures that we do in terms of creating those purpose-built homes for affordable home ownership, and then the interesting financing piece to accompany it so that they can afford a mortgage within their means.

We do see benefits to both pieces, although we are very much focused on how holding on to that GST will help us do more.

[Kent MacDonald, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I have another question on homebuilding.

As I talk to stakeholders, especially the non-profits, they talk about the need for coordination federally, provincially and municipally. With the supports that are there now, what would you see that the federal government, provincial governments and municipal governments could do to make homebuilding more affordable and faster?

[Alana Lavoie]

Oh, my. That's a big question, but thank you.

I think there are lots of different pieces. First of all, ensuring that the funding that is offered by each order of government can work together is one piece. There are some things the federal government can deliver very effectively. There are other things the provincial governments are more directly involved in, and of course there are measures and instruments in the hands of local governments for which they are best equipped. Let's make sure those are working together in timing as well as in terms of being able to stack and click together. It's all about Lego, really.

It's the same with regulatory requirements and timing on those. We want to make sure that as funds flow from one order of government to incent new housing supply, they're not being delayed and held up at a local level. We've seen developments over the last couple of years where there has been some success at getting local governments to move a little bit faster as federal funding has flowed through the housing accelerator fund, for example, and the rapid housing initiative. I think using the various tools that the federal government has in its hands to help line up the pieces will be incredibly important for organizations like Habitat and for other non-market housing providers to be able to really move and scale in the way we need to, to meet the need.

[Kent MacDonald, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you.

Ms. Carr, you talked about the negative effects of the tax cut. When Minister Champagne was here on Monday, he mentioned it in his comments, and the previous member mentioned that he was looking for solutions. I'll commit as well to helping him find those solutions.

Could you review the safeguards that you mentioned in your preamble that will make sure that people aren't shortchanged with the tax cuts, the 14.5% this year and then 14% next year?