Fisheries Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes.

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

Then the official of Fisheries and Oceans told me that in fact they have as many regular rifles on board as are needed for everybody. They just use that one for economic purposes, because the .22 magnum bullet costs, I guess, something like 12¢, and the .222 or .223 costs 25¢. So if they kill 1,000 animals during the season, which is a good season for them, I guess it's going to make a difference of $130, which is the price of one pelt this year.

I totally agree about ignorance and that education should be provided to reduce some of these things, because I discussed it with many sealers on the boat and showed them the proper way of checking the animal to see if it was dead or not. I provided some information, and they were really willing to listen. I don't know if they were scared or not. I'm not a scary person, hopefully, but at least they were listening, and I think they were interested. And hopefully the next time they look at a seal, they'll know what to look at to see if the seal is alive or not. But in this case, obviously, and in the case of the violation when the boat was still hunting after the hunt had stopped....

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I have just one last quick question. Does your group receive any funding from the sealers or DFO? That's just for my own clarification?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

Did we start washing cars this year?

[Dr. Alice Crook]

Washing cars. Yes, we did start a car wash.

There was the one-time funding from the World Wildlife Fund, which was wonderful, but really, there is no other funding. So as Charles said, we take opportunities to go and make observations, but really, there isn't any funding.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So you're noble and poor.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

Yes. I don't know.

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

The very tricky point, and it is something we really want to insist on, is our independence. We are not on the animal welfare side and we are not on the hunters' side. So to date, all the observations have been done at the invitation of Fisheries and Oceans, and there were very good conditions and everything. But for example, just for me to go to Newfoundland, Dr. Daoust has to use his own research funds from other projects to fund my plane ticket. Once we are there, DFO takes care of us under very good conditions. But once again, it's very hard for us, because we want to keep our credibility as an independent group. Hopefully we can easily find some money to pursue our research, but we don't want to be on one side or the other.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

No, I understand that.

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

It's a very tricky point. You deal with money more than I do, so probably you have some advice for us.

Merci beaucoup.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

Can I respond to the previous question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You can go ahead.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

You asked what the differences are in something that might be seen on the videotape, that we might interpret differently. The obvious one is movement, which we might interpret as swimming reflex, and which they interpret as an animal being skinned alive.

But there is another point that's really important, and it's part of the training. Certainly sealers who have been sealing for a long time know this, but because of the competitiveness of the hunt and how lucrative it is these days, there are a lot of new sealers getting into the business. When seals are struck but are not unconscious, they have not been struck properly, and they can be in a state of fear-induced paralysis, in which they become stiff and contracted. They actually hold still. So if we see a seal being dragged by a hook, and it's all huddled up like this in the video, then we're concerned that the seal is not actually unconscious.

Again, it's a question of training and education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Would it be incorrect to say, though, that if the animal were in shock, and the three-step process were still followed, it would be in shock rather than unconscious, which is a different thing? But if it were still bled before skinning, the animal would certainly be dead.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

The other thing is that the first step in the skinning process is cutting the major arteries in the axilla. So really the first step in the skinning process is the bleeding process. So if indeed, after they were struck, they were very quickly bled, then that would definitely ensure death. But if someone were to skin a seal that was in this hunched-up, contracted state, then conceivably the seal would be conscious.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

But there is a four-step process. It's either shooting or using the hakapik, palpating of the skull, bleeding, and skinning.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

After they're bled, they're dead. So when I talk about dragging those seals that might be in a contracted state, this would not occur if they had a crushed skull. So if they'd gone through the process and they'd palpated for a crushed skull, that seal would not be....

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

So again, it's what you said earlier: follow the process, and it'll be a humane process.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Monsieur Asselin, do you have any questions? No? You're good.

Mr. Kamp, go ahead, please.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you for coming. It was a very good presentation, and I appreciated it very much.

Let me ask a couple of questions. I have two unrelated questions.

A National Post article in June 2005--you may have seen it--by Mary Richardson says:

As a Canadian expert in humane slaughter, and past chair of both the Animal Welfare Committee of the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association and the Animal Care Review Board with the Solicitor General of Ontario, I was asked by the HSUS to review their 2005 seal hunt footage.

Without a doubt, what I witnessed was clear evidence of unacceptable and illegal cruelty to animals.

She goes on then, in a paragraph I won't read, to describe the practices that she thought were clearly illegal. She says:

These are not humane ways to die as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada.

As veterinarians, with respect to the death of an animal, what would you say “humane” means?

[Dr. Alice Crook]

I'd like to make a couple of preliminary comments. I know Mary Richardson. I've served on committees with her in the past. The videotapes she's talking about are the ones that we have not been able to view, but that, we have heard, do show infractions. So we may well agree with her in what she's saying there.

As far as what constitutes a “humane” death goes, the definition is widely accepted. This is what you're talking about in slaughterhouses, with research animals, and whatever. It's a rapid, irreversible--irreversible is important--loss of consciousness followed by death. Usually bleeding is the way of confirming the death.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

So the concept of pain is not part of the definition.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

With rapid, irreversible loss of consciousness, I guess maybe there's a very short period of pain when they're being clubbed or when the stun gun is used in the abattoir. But the point is that it's very rapid.

Maybe I'm not answering your question very well.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

I think I know what you're saying.

In your report, you refer to the fact that the DFO officials who are responsible for monitoring can be well known to the sealers. You speculate on the possible conflict of interest or difficulty for them to enforce the rules with their friends or people they rub shoulders with. Did you want to comment any further on that?