Fisheries Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Merci beaucoup.

Monsieur Boudreau.

[Paul Boudreau]

In any case, if we don't have laws to regulate and legislate the observation, we have parliamentarians to change the laws. It's up to you to pass the legislation we need to make sure that the hunt is respected and regulated.

I would like to respond to what Mr. Manning said. The province of Newfoundland can adopt regulations and legislations to protect its industry. I acknowledge that the province wants the processing to take place on its territory, but the department does not have the right to suffocate our industry because there are not enough quotas for the industry in Newfoundland to survive. It is not the industry on the Magdalen Islands, nor is it the fact that we buy some of the product in Newfoundland, that are causing problems in that province. Newfoundland's problem is the skins that are exported to other countries, not the skins that go from Newfoundland to the Magdalen Islands. That's not an issue for Newfoundlanders.

Further, we would need a quota of at least 30,000 skins to have an integrated industry. That quota would mean that hunters would have enough work and we would have an industry which could live off of the hunt. That figure does not even represent 10% of the global quota. People living on the Magdalen Islands have fought for many years to save the hunt. Hunters from the Magdalen Islands have always been under much more pressure during the hunt than hunters elsewhere. The abolitionists come here because it is not so far away and easier for them. So our hunters always have to deal with the protesters and they are forced to hunt surrounded by these people.

Historically, it has also had an impact on landings. As Mr. Cyr said earlier, the hunt only lasts two or three days, and when you spend half a day with the protesters on your back, the hunt really does not go as quickly. The hunt cannot be carried out under the same conditions. I think that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should take that fact into account and give us a fair quota. If that happens, Newfoundland can adopt whatever regulations it wants to retain its own industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

I know other members have questions, so please ask one or two questions each so everyone has an opportunity.

Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Gentlemen, first off I want to say how deeply impressed each and every one of us was on our visit to the Magdalen Islands, in particular by the infrastructure you've built up in terms of not only promoting seals and sealing but also of promoting education, good solid education, as to exactly what this resource is to this island and to you as people who live on a fully renewable natural resource.

What really struck me this morning as we went to Club Vacances and went to the seal interpretation centre was how you've really been able to promote what this industry is, what it means, and how it can be done sustainably, and you're getting that message out. I think this committee needed to hear that, because it will be an integral part of our report. In fact, I took it very seriously that the work you've done needs to be brought to other areas of Canada--even my own home province, where, amazingly enough, a survey that was done showed that with the increasing urbanization of Canada, including Newfoundland and Labrador, young people in our own region are starting to get a somewhat cynical view about the impact of seals and sealing and whether sealing is an appropriate activity. I don't think that's a product of the merits of the issue; it's just simply that they too are hearing the constant messages from others. From my point of view, this committee took that very seriously, and I've no doubt we'll incorporate it into our final report.

I want to get into the economics and have a look at exactly what the sealing industry means to the Magdalen Islands. How many sealers are involved in the industry here? What's the average value that you received per pelt, per animal? What really struck me were some comments made about research and development and maximizing the value of the resource. It just seems to me that if somebody actually came up with some ability to assist burn survivors, as with the example of the collagen, and then heart ailments with the omega-3 oils.... The best way to fight this issue, in my opinion, is not to simply fight emotion with facts, because unfortunately the facts will be the first casualty; it's really to fight emotion with emotion, emotion with good substantive counterbalance and counterproduct. The research and development aspect of this industry--developing new products--seems to be the best offence we could possibly muster in terms of getting this together.

Taking it from a grassroots point of view, how many sealers are on the Magdalen Islands? What was the average annual value of the pelts for the animals you got last year? Where could we see this industry going, with the right applications?

[Roger Simon]

To answer your question, Mr. Byrne, there are about 700 licences, on average, issued per year. Out of those, we qualify about 350 as commercially active; they earn a significant part of their annual salary from sealing. There are no accurate numbers on this, but this estimate is fairly good, I think. The other 300-odd sealers we could qualify as people who will go when the seals are very close or accessible. The Newfoundlanders, I think, have a good expression for it: they call it “for the pot”. A lot of people do eat seal here, and some will get a licence only to harvest seals for personal use, but we figure there are about 350 who are commercially active. The landed value is about $1.5 million.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

What was the average landed value per animal last year?

[Roger Simon]

A good estimate is maybe $70.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Jean-Claude, that's one of the things about tourism. I'm not here to stir up the pot either, and it seems to me you've done a very solid job of balancing the consumptive aspects of the industry with the non-consumptive aspects of the industry. There have been proposals put forward by the IFAW and others to comb seals and manufacture products out of the fur that comes from the comb--absolute nonsense. The Magdalen Islands have built up a tourism industry in many respects, in the pre-season, but then by graphically showing these non-factual images of a whitecoat hunt, they're the ones that actually are the cause of the demise of the tourism aspect.

This area is the same as my area. It always enjoyed the economic and social benefits of sealing. We've had the protesters come in. They marginalized the economic benefits of sealing. Then we went increasingly to tourism. Now they're trying to marginalize the tourism aspects of the industry. The truth is--believe me, in my own riding, tourism is very important and I'm a big supporter of it--if tourism was the best industry around, the richest places on the planet should be Jamaica and the Dominican Republic, but it's not, because you need a balance of many industries in order to make a solid economy.

Where do we go from here in terms of counterbalancing the impact of groups like the IFAW? How do we actually continue to stimulate the industry? Do we fight fire with fire? Do we fight with emotion? Give us, for our report, how we do this in terms of taking on this issue.

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

This is a battle for the hearts of people; we therefore have to fight for the hearts as well. It's another approach. We are dealing with tourism. We need tourism on the Magdalen Islands, but we are at the point where we have to review everything to see whether, in fact, tourism is indeed a good thing. It's an irritant. That even holds true for the slide show I saw this morning at the open air centre. The first time I saw it, I wasn't really sure about it. Someone from the other group talked to me about it and told me that it felt strange to him to see images of the hunt and whitecoats. For the hunters, the whitecoats have become something like a tumour which they must drag around. This tumour has already become a cancer.

That is why I question the idea of tourism. We have to look at the situation all together to see whether the hunt should be conducted and presented differently, so we can save it. As I said in my presentation, it is five minutes to midnight and we must act. We are pleased that you are here to talk about this situation and to examine every aspect of it. In fact, that is something I have already done. I have asked myself why I am still a hunter at 66 years of age. I tried to determine what impact tourism has had on the herd. Today, I take a holistic approach to nature, which includes the hunt and tourism. Everyone has their rights, but there also has to be a balance.

The IFAW and the Humane Society have made millions of dollars off of the hunt. We nearly lost a generation of hunters because of those who wish to abolish the hunt. My three sons hunt with me. They are 34, 36 and 42 years old. Three years ago, I had to show them where they could not go on the ice because otherwise they would fall into the water. I started hunting at the age of 12. I grew up doing this. I would be curious to find out at what age people begin hunting these days. It certainly won't be 14 or 15 years. These are all things I wonder about today.

As for tourism, are we doing the right thing? Perhaps, but the question has to be asked. Is tourism a good thing or a bad thing? The issue should be studied, but it will not be a small association made up of people with only a Grade 7 education who will be able to analyze all the ins and outs of the situation. We need a committee created specifically to study this matter, and with government support, to examine the situation from every point of view. There is work to be done, and it must be done by competent people.

I am a hunter, a professional whitecoat hunter. I do not think that I should sit on such a committee, but there are competent people who could.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Monsieur Lapierre.

Mr. Arseneau, and then Mr. Boudreau. I'm going to again ask you both to be very brief, because Monsieur Byrne was very long.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Joël Arseneau]

Long question, short answer. Part of the answer was in the question, so that's all right.

We were wondering whether we should fight fire with fire. Personally, I think we should fight emotions with facts. Every time you dissect the arguments of the abolitionists, you realize that they just don't make sense.

You said earlier that the hunt respected the balance of the ecosystem. We are talking about a renewable resource. We cannot stop repeating that the hunt is conducted in an orderly manner, that it is done in the best conditions and that the killing is done in a respectful manner, in accordance with our principles. Further, I think we should stop pitting tourism against hunting or fishing activities.

We can give you a copy of our policy framework on tourism development. The policy states that, at the local level, tourism is important for the economy, but that fishing activities truly represent the backbone of our industry. This includes the seal hunt. As a tourist destination, we would only be the shadow of our former selves if we lost that which makes up our identity, that is, hunting and fishing. Attracting tourists by selling them a product which is not authentic is something that we cannot even image.

As for striking a balance between hunting seals and observing them, in my opinion we have managed, in the last 10 years, despite the blackmail we were subject to over a certain period of time, to strike a certain balance. Those who come or keep coming to observe the seals a few weeks before the hunt might be closing their eyes to the situation, but they always have to contend with the people who have been described as barbarians. But when they leave, they have a different image of the hunters.

It's a long process, because the observers don't all come at the same time, and there are only about a few hundred of them each year. I think that these people are then forced to admit, even when they talk about the situation with the guides on the ice, that the two activities are not incompatible, that the animals they have come to photograph can also be hunted, and that these activities take place during two distinct periods. These two realities have coexisted for 10 years. It is, to a certain extent, a delicate balance, but it is nevertheless a balance which we have been able to keep over the last few years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Mr. Boudreau.

[Paul Boudreau]

I would like to begin by talking about training. We have developed a guide and a video to train the hunters. In fact, it is the hunter's handbook. It was distributed during the training course, once the hunt had started, to attract young people to the hunt. The best way to sell the hunt is probably by talking about the training hunters receive. When we met with European parliamentarians and senators from the European Council, what probably struck and impressed them the most was when we told them that our hunters are trained and are closely monitored, and that the hunt is conducted in a professional manner.

The first recommendation of your committee should probably be to make training mandatory to ensure that the hunt is carried out as it should be. If a couple of hunters somewhere remain isolated and do not hunt properly, that will affect the entire hunt and all hunters. So we have to make sure that this does not happen again.

The second point has to do with research and development. It's another way for us to convince the public of the benefits of the hunt. Today, there is a fair amount of research and development with regard to the seal industry. We are in the process of conducting research to separate the omega-3 fatty acids found in seal oil in order to sell each of them as an active ingredient.

There is a lot of research and development happening in Newfoundland, but it is not concentrated anywhere. The research is spread out all over the place. There should be an umbrella organization to identify exactly who is doing what and produce research reports. A lot of academic reports have been written the benefits of seal oil. Other reports have been produced on the advantages of biodiesel, and so on. However, the information is still very diluted. It would be much easier to export omega-3s to the American market than fur. We have to keep this in mind. The day when Americans want omega-3s from seal oil, they will be more inclined to amend their legislation than they have been for fur imports.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

They'll need seal oil when they run out of heavy crude.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I have a two-pronged question or a double question.

First, I will talk about the fact that information is one of the weapons at our disposal. I think that the Seal Interpretive Centre on the Magdalen Islands is a good start, but more needs to be done. For instance, would you support the committee if it recommended that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans provide support for the Seal Interpretive Centre, and perhaps support opening another such centre in Newfoundland? Fisheries and Oceans could provide more financial support to the centre so that it could modernize its exhibits, and the travelling exhibits of the centre would also be an added benefit.

The travelling exhibits can be shown almost anywhere. As you said earlier, we need to convince other Canadians of this, and Ottawa is a good place to start. The 308 members of Parliament are in Ottawa, and embassies are also located there. So that would be something to do. Would you support such an initiative?

My next question is specifically for Mr. Lapierre.

I would like you to tell us more about the film you saw and which you mentioned a little earlier. What is it about? How long is it? What exactly does it show?

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

I saw the film with Mr. Arseneau. Its aim is to counterbalance the disinformation. The documentary is not in favour of the hunt, but even a remotely intelligent person can come to their own conclusions.

We finally have what we wanted.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Does this film show the handling?

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

Yes. You even see a little beater being tormented 45 minutes to make the last video. The scene takes place on the ice. The producer then asks Rebecca Aldworth why she let the seal suffer for 45 minutes and why they did not kill it. You can see that she is ill at ease. I know her, but someone who does not know her and who sees her on the ice can see how she is feeling. She is stuck, she has no way out.

Perhaps someone thought that it would be okay [Editor's note: Inaudible] to happen here. Perhaps someone would have taken it to the vet. That is not credible. You see the truth. You see chemists talking about collagen; the story of the hakapik, with a skull of a seal, captive bolt pistols, etc. It is presented by Mr. Daoust. It also shows how seals are skinned. You hear the truth about the seal hunt. You can clearly see the pros and cons.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Is it in French or English?

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

The film is in French. It is not out yet, but Europe and the United States are asking for it.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

It would be important for committee members to see it.

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

It is very important.