Fisheries Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Yes, thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'll say to Mr. Wadman that it's great to have another Placentia Bay man at the table. I'm from the top of the bay.

Under the marine mammal regulations—and maybe Mr. Hammill can answer it—you can apply for a fishing licence for what's known as a nuisance seal; I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's a nuisance seal. I'm trying to get my head around it, because in my opinion, most of the seals are nuisances in regard to what they're doing to our cod stocks. I've heard a difference of opinion here this morning, so I'll simply give mine.

The bottom line is that there are two things we're trying to wrestle with here. One is an allowable seal hunt, plus some way of saving our fish stocks at the same time. It goes a little bit wider than only the seal hunt, when it comes to the fishery.

As for the nuisance seal, could you elaborate on that for the people here? Is it possible that a fisherman could apply for a licence to take some of the grey seal herd under the nuisance seal part of the marine mammal regulations?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

It is possible to apply for a nuisance seal licence, but I think this region has to come up with their criteria. The way it has been set up nationally, you have to show clearly that it is a nuisance. It is not meant to be a solution for a problem of too many seals; it's supposed to be a solution for a particular pain in the butt that's causing economic damage. In a way, you're supposed to show, in theory, that other approaches would not work.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Has it been used, to your knowledge? Do you know of fishermen who have applied for licences and received licences for nuisance seals?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

There was a policy in this region before where it was fairly open, but new policies have come through nationally and they've been trying to tighten up on that. One factor is that we just have no idea how many seals are actually taken under this licensing scheme. So there are still some things that need to be worked out.

For details, ask Jerry Conway. He's the person most involved, based in Halifax with DFO. He can give you the fine details, but it's not meant to be a solution to what is perceived to be too many seals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Ms. MacKenzie.

[Debbie MacKenzie]

I might respond that there is quite a lot of use of nuisance seal licences. The nuisance seal hunt is a fairly substantial hunt, judging by the rotting carcasses that are littering the shorelines, shot by fishermen. It's routine in recent years.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

You telling me that fishermen have licences, and they're taking these seals and just sticking them on the beach.

[Debbie MacKenzie]

Yes, they do. They leave them where they shoot them. Wounded or dead, they come ashore. They rot on public beaches and private property. Last summer, there was a kayak tour operator who found a dozen shot, eleven dead and one wounded. It's very commonly done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Two more people want to have an opportunity to speak.

Mr. Courtney, and then Mr. Wadman, on this subject.

[Robert Courtney]

Yes, we might as well put out a nuisance cod fishery thing too and do away with all the cod fish, because they eat the $5 lobsters and $3 or $2 crab, and all this.

It's an industry that we're talking about. I'm here representing the sealing industry, the licensed sealers, and the nuisance seal licences are out of control. It's an industry, and a good industry, so why not manage it as such? That's all we're asking. Allow us to go to the place where we can harvest the animals and do it properly, not give everybody a gun and say, if anybody sees a seal, shoot it. That's not acceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Courtney.

Mr. Wadman had a comment.

[Glenn Wadman]

I actually want to get my last 10 seconds in, and not particularly on this topic. I just want to bring up something for the record.

The industry around here at the table has been saying harvest, harvest, harvest. This is not personal, Mike, but I lost track of how many times you used the word “cull”. I think you used it 16 or 17 particular times. The industry is not here looking for a cull; the industry is here looking for a harvest. There is a very different distinction between those two things, and I'd like that message to be reflected in the--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

It is now on the record.

Mr. Manning, do you have a final comment?

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

On that note, I would like to take a moment again to thank our witnesses. I know there are people in the audience who would have liked to appear before the committee and were unable to.

I certainly recognize Mr. Morrow again. I fully expect your submission in writing to the committee. It will be translated and sent to all the membership of the committee.

I see Willie Nickerson has left the premises, but if Willie has something to put in writing, I'd be happy to receive that as well, and all the committee could receive it, and anyone else.

Mr. Stoddard, you have your hand up.

[Peter Stoddard]

I'd just like to remind the audience that the media is here. Take advantage of it and get pictures. Use it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Do you have any other public service messages, Mr. Stoddard?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I do have a couple of very quick and final questions. The first one is for Ms. MacKenzie.

You talked about ecosystem management. You spoke very well from your point of view, but the question I have is, do you recognize man as being a predator in the ecosystem?

[Debbie MacKenzie]

Yes, absolutely, but man's not a natural marine predator. The natural marine predators are integrated into perpetuating the life processes in the sea in a way that man is not. Man is a parasitic predator on the marine animals. The marine animals are interconnected, and the function of the ecosystem necessarily involves predation. Fish have been on the planet for 400 million years, never without predators. They're practically without predators now.

You pointed out that when there were fewer seals a few decades ago, the fisheries were healthier. That's true. There were more predators then because there were sharks and big hake and big cod. There were actually more predators.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I agree there were more predators 20 years ago, and a lot of the big sharks especially are no longer in the ocean. Wouldn't it be reasonable that another predator would replace them and wouldn't it be reasonable to say that predator could be man?

[Debbie MacKenzie]

No, because man's not integrated into the nutrient recycling and health maintenance of the sea, as the sharks are. For instance, when starved fish hit the wall--and that's what's happened with the groundfish; they can't grow above 20 inches of cod anymore--this slinky, miserable fish is due for recycling, and the natural predator takes them out one at a time and recycles them. Man can't do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Levy, I'm going to give you the final comment. That was my question.

[John Levy]

Since I speed-read my presentation, I have 30 seconds.

Some of this was mentioned, but about the samples of what seals eat, the scientists are basing their information on Sable Island. Unfortunately the cod stocks are completely depleted around Sable Island, and when they're getting this information of what the seals are actually eating, well, that is only based on the seals that are living around or coming to Sable Island. For the seals that are living and eating in the western component of Nova Scotia, where there still is a cod fishery, obviously the diet of the seal and the percentage of cod that they eat would be a lot higher. And where seals are targeting the gonads and the liver of the fish they eat because of the high concentration of protein, and this was briefed on, the amount of fish that is actually killed is substantially a lot higher than what would show up in the amount of fish that is actually eaten by the seals.

That's the last comment I'd like to make. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I appreciate that.

Once again, thanks to all of our witnesses. Thanks to the people in the audience who are here today. For those who have a submission they would like to send to the clerk for the fisheries committee of the House of Commons, we'd be more than happy to receive it.

On that note, I'm going to adjourn this meeting.