Fisheries Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

That's why you're here.

[Glenn Wadman]

The perception is that it's difficult. And why? It's because Sable is a park, so it's a protected area.

So do we protect it until we wipe out the groundfish population? The herd is basically on the Nova Scotian Shelf, based on Sable Island. We've expanded the herd from 10,000 to 250,000. Do we protect it until it gets to half a million? Do we protect it until it gets to a million? Do we protect it until they've taken all the groundfish stocks, until they've gone to oblivion? Or, as more than likely will happen, Mother Nature will have an answer for this. It happened in the North Sea when their seals overpopulated. Mother Nature will introduce a disease. It should make good video. I dare most of the conservation societies to show it, when you have nice 600- or 700-pound rotting carcasses—thousands and thousands of them—floating ashore on Sable Island.

What is the logic? Because it's a park, fishermen can't earn money? Because it's a park, we have to waste a Canadian resource?

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Perhaps the question I should be asking is, how do we do it? How do we get on and off Sable and harvest the seal in a commercially sustainable manner without having unacceptable environmental repercussions?

[Robert Courtney]

We've been on islands before and have harvested the seals. We take them right off, take them to the boats, and do the biggest part of the processing on the boats. There's no damage. There's nothing left on the island. Everything is taken off. If going onto the island is going to damage the island, they'd better get all those ponies and everything out of it too, because with just 100 fishermen going on there and doing the harvest, there'd be no damage to the island.

The other concentration of seals is at Hay Island, which is down by Scatarie. We were on there and we're in court over it now, but there was no damage done to the island. We took 600 or 800 seals off the island. There was no damage to the island. We did it very well, and the same thing can be done on Sable. But until we're allowed there, we don't want another court case like the one we're in now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Thibault.

Mr. Blais.

Mr. Blais, please.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Let's just wait a second until our witnesses....

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I would like to let you know that Mr. Cuzner and Mr. Thibault are here today. I would have preferred that they be in the Magdalen Islands or elsewhere in the field. I would like to say that we had an opportunity to dine on seal yesterday. We are a little tired today because we got here at three o'clock this morning, which has nothing to do with what we ate yesterday in the Magdalen Islands. Seal meat is very good. We ate smoked harp seal and seal rillettes, which is a mixture of dough and seal meat. It is delicious and very healthful. It contains omega 3s and all kinds of other things.

My first question is for Mike Hammill. I would like to know what is happening at Fisheries and Oceans on the seal file. We have been hearing about seal diets for some time now. Nobody seems to know exactly what is happening. I am having a hard time understanding what we can do about this. Why is it so hard to figure out how many tonnes of fish seals eat per year? I think Mr. Stoddard was saying that one seal eats two tonnes per year. Why is it so difficult? Science should have an answer to that.

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

Thank you.

The current challenge is not estimating how much fish seals consume. For example, a grey seal eats about a tonne and a half of fish per year. We even have a pretty good idea of the percentage each species' diet represents. We have a problem with the samples because it all depends on where we go. Sable Island seals do not have the same diet as Magdalen Islands seals. So there is a sampling problem. However, we can measure things to a certain extent and figure out average consumption. We do that quite well.

That said, we have a hard time measuring the impact of consumption on the target species. Are seals responsible for 30%, 50% or 90% of the natural mortality for cod? That is where we run into problems because we do not have good ways to measure cod mortality and to determine causes of mortality in the species.

The second problem is determining how killing all the seals would benefit the cod. Is there a direct connection between seals and cod? Would other predators fill the niche created by killing the seals? The ecological link is a problem.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Given what you are telling me, is it true that Fisheries and Oceans has fairly limited financial resources to do research on seals ? That is the only explanation I can see for the lack of data. How can you justify that lack of data? Is it because not enough money is being spent on research?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

We recently completed a major research project on seals in eastern Canada, and our data are current. The problem is synthesizing all of that information. We need money for that. That is part of the problem. But it also takes a lot of time to tabulate and harmonize all the information in order to assess the impact.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I do not want to put you in an uncomfortable position, but I would like to know how much money would have to be invested in research and how much money is currently being spent on it.

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

Are you asking me how much money we want and how much is being spent on research now?

Including professionals, our current budget for eastern Canada is $200,000. We would like another $100,000 or even $200,000 to get an accurate picture of the situation.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

That is not a huge amount.

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

We have spent a lot of money over the past two years. Fisheries and Oceans spent $5 million over two years to assess that. We updated our information on marine populations and distribution.We have already invested a lot of money and now we need a little more to pull it all together. I do not mean that it is not done, but we will—

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Would it be correct to say that it is not just a matter of money? Yes, it is about money, but it is also about dedicating human resources to intensive research. Is that right?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

To a certain extent. We need more people trained in modelling. We need people with expertise in creating quantitative models and simulations to evaluate the impact.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Go very quickly, please. You don't, but you can have a very quick question.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Do harp seals and grey seals eat crab and lobster? Are they eating more than they used to? How much do they eat?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

Yes, they do, but not a lot. We found five, six or eight snow crab in the stomachs of harp seals around the Magdalen Islands. We kill one in 600 or 700 seals. Snow crab is a very small part of the seals' diet. A big part of the grey seal diet is the meat that fishers put in traps to attract cod and snow crab. They also break the traps, especially the wooden ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Merci beaucoup, monsieur Blais.

We'll go to Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm curious about the numbers. For the first of the cull, the harvest levels weren't what the allocation allowed in terms of seals.

I'm looking at your statistics, Mr. Hammill, from the presentation you've put before us. You'd be about the third panel, I guess, to show the total population of grey seals during the period from about 1966 to about 1981 being less than 50,000--maybe around 30,000 until about 1981 plus--and gradually going over the 50,000 mark around 1983. I guess that's when the seal hunt was stopped. And you can see the numbers increasing exponentially from there to over 250,000.

That would sort of indicate that we have a huge shift in the population of seals, and our fishermen here are recording the effects on the stocks. How is it that we need science and science and science to produce evidence that there's actually a problem here, when it seems to me that it's quite clear that the populations were lower and the fisheries were better? I guess I'd like comment....

When we were on the Magdalen Islands, they don't call them, of course, seals there. They don't call them phoques. They use the word loup-marin, sea wolf. I look at these pictures that have been circulated of the halibut that have been visited by the seals and what's left of them, and it does sort of look like a wolf has worked them over. Some of the images have been around the table.

Then we hear our lobster fishermen talking about being stalked. They're going out to pick up their traps and having young ones.... Now, we're concerned about lobster fisheries. We have management protocols in place about size limits and so on. They're trying to be responsible and protect the stocks of lobster, and when they toss the little ones overboard, they're being eaten by the seals.

I know you just said that there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that that's a big part of their diet, but I imagine that if you had sampled one of those grey seals, you might have found something to change what you're finding in stomach contents, and so on, in favour of the lobster fishermen's observations.

What is holding us back from actually recognizing that there's a problem here and taking the necessary steps to remedy it?

[Dr. Mike Hammill]

I guess several things need to be examined here.

First, seals are responsible for what percentage of natural mortality in cod? In the analyses we've done, it's fishing that has driven down the cod population. Is what limited fishing that now exists the main factor limiting the recovery, or is it what is being consumed by the grey seals? When we look at overall mortality, is the mortality that we can attribute to grey seals the major feature, or are there other aspects that we don't understand? That's where one big gap is right now. What component of total mortality can be allocated to grey seals versus other sources of mortality?

[A voice]

DFO.