Evidence of meeting #30 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was certainly.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Larry Murray  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
George Da Pont  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Bevan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sue Kirby  Assistant Deputy Minister, Oceans and Habitat, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I call the meeting to order pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the study on the expenditure plans and the effectiveness of their implementation by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Larry Murray, who is the deputy minister; George Da Pont, the Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; David Bevan, the assistant deputy minister of fisheries and aquaculture management; and Cal Hegge, the acting deputy minister, human resources and corporate services.

And of course, I would like very much to welcome the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, the Honourable Loyola Hearn, to the meeting today.

Welcome, Minister.

11:10 a.m.

St. John's South—Mount Pearl Newfoundland & Labrador

Conservative

Loyola Hearn ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Our members are mostly here, so I'd ask the minister or the witnesses to proceed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's certainly a pleasure to be back to review my department's operations. As always, I'll keep my remarks very brief. Those of you who've known me over the years on this committee know I say very little.

You've already introduced my officials. We do have some other people here for the simple reason that usually at committee people have technical questions, questions pertinent to certain divisions of the department, and we try to have people here who can provide an answer. Any we can't provide, we certainly will get to you very quickly.

The last time we met we discussed in some detail a few of the concerns you had about supposed cutbacks in funding and personnel. I trust that between the meeting and the subsequent questions put to my officials last week, you now have the answers you require.

For the record, let me emphasize that overall funding for my department has increased, not decreased. You might have seen that I have had to clarify this fact with the media, since they had picked up particular similar reports, likely stemming from a misunderstanding on how the budgetary and planning cycles work.

This increase includes an additional $99 million to improve critical services in science, fisheries and fish habitat management, and coast guard programs, all of which we can touch on in more detail today.

In British Columbia, for instance, we have increased the number of fisheries enforcement staff from 162 to 176 and have added 12 new habitat monitors, allowing our fisheries officers to focus on their work on the Fraser and in the Pacific coastal areas. That in itself is significant, not only the increase in direct protection officers, but by providing the new habitat officers, our enforcement people can now do the job they were sent out to do rather than having to worry about other aspects.

We have further deployed 27 fishery officer recruits across the Atlantic provinces. This is the first significant recruitment of fishery officers since 2003, and additional recruitment and training is planned for 2007.

That said, there are still changes. How do we protect and promote the commercial fishery both from an ecological and an economic perspective? I don't believe the two to be mutually exclusive, but it is a tremendous balancing act to ensure that both our fish stocks and our stakeholders survive and prosper.

As much as we would like quick fixes, that's just not possible. But that does not mean the situation of the fishery isn't urgent. It is. The economic value of the fishery to Canada is considerable. With exports worth $4.3 billion in 2005 and a recreational fishery—this might just open up eyes, I know it certainly did mine—valued at more than $7 billion. The fishery employs over 100,000 people and remains crucial to the economic prosperity of coastal Canada. But the economic and ecological pressures on the resource also remain intense and challenging.

The fishery must change or it will not survive. It means getting good conservation right, getting governance right, and getting the economics and the infrastructure right.

That leads me to our fisheries renewal agenda. We continue to work hard to cooperate and consult with our provincial and territorial colleagues. As you may recall, last May I participated in the premiers summit in Newfoundland and Labrador, where we discussed a cross-section of complex fisheries issues. That consultation didn't end here. What has now become part of a fishing industry renewal initiative continues as we speak. It will focus on policy renewal and industry restructuring. A follow-up series of consultations will take place with harvesters, processors, and plant workers, and we anticipate their recommendations by year's end.

Incidentally, I also met with my other Atlantic counterparts last July in Charlottetown to discuss the plight of the Northumberland Strait fishers, and just last week I met with my colleagues in Quebec to discuss their unique concerns. The topics on the table included commercialization, processing, and harvesting. We committed at those meetings to identify and implement whatever short-term solutions are possible before the 2007 season.

Before I leave the matter of federal-provincial cooperation, let me share with you two initiatives we have undertaken, one dealing with conservation and the other with economics.

We are committed to conserving and restoring wild Atlantic salmon and its habitat on the Atlantic coast. To that end, we are moving forward on the Atlantic salmon endowment fund, as I announced earlier this month in Fredericton. The fund itself is a $30 million conditional grant that will be invested, and the income earned will be used to support projects that contribute to salmon conservation and restoration.

On the economic side of the fisheries equation, in late October I and my Newfoundland and Labrador counterparts joined representatives of Cooke Aquaculture to announce more than $155 million in funding to establish an aquaculture development project. The DFO share is $4.5 million and comes by way of our aquaculture collaborative research and development program.

This project is expected to triple the province's salmon production and create over 2,000 full-time, year-round direct jobs as well as additional indirect jobs in the aquaculture processing, supply, and service sectors. I should mention it's in the riding of my colleague from Burin--Burgeo along the coast, where they've been hit extremely hard over the last couple of years, and it could be turned around in that area. This investment is exactly the type of shot in the arm this area needs and will create the critical mass necessary to position the aquaculture industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Of course, cooperation and consultation are no less important on the international front. I was in Iceland and Norway two weeks ago to speak to the never-ending fight against illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing in the North Atlantic. We also discussed how to ensure decisions are based on science and how NAFO might integrate precautionary- and ecosystem-based approaches into its decision-making. And we had lengthy conversations on the fishery we share, and that's the seal fishery.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words about science renewal, our oceans agenda, small craft harbours, and coast guard modernization.

The need for sound scientific advice is critical to my department and our government. We have invested an additional $15.5 million in science to get a clearer picture of what's happening to fish and fish habitat. We believe in the role of sound science as a way to better inform our fisheries habitat and oceans management decisions.

DFO will continue to lead the implementation of the government-wide oceans action plan to advance integrated oceans management in Canada's Atlantic, Pacific, and Arctic oceans. To that end, the department established regional implementation committees in each of the OAP priority areas and I announced the smart bay demonstration project to showcase Canada's oceans technology expertise.

We also recognize the importance of providing commercial fishers with solid infrastructure through the small craft harbours program. I will continue working to maintain this important program, while realizing there are many funding pressures.

Last, Mr. Chairman, I want to ensure that the people who work so hard in the coast guard to keep us safe have what they need to do their jobs. We have already increased funding by $45 million per year, in addition to the more than $270 million dedicated to fleet renewal. And we will proceed with the aids to navigation for the 21st century initiative to provide the right combination of conventional and electronic aids to help stakeholders and members of the public safely navigate our waters.

I mentioned a couple of hundred jobs, to start with, on the south coast, but we've been told estimates of anywhere from 2,000 to 5,000--even up to 8,000--in aquaculture in Atlantic Canada, and particularly on the south coast of Newfoundland. That's pretty positive stuff.

Thank you for listening, Mr. Chair. We would be pleased to take any questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you, Minister Hearn.

Before we start, I would like to thank you and your department for appearing here today. Thank you for your planned financial and human resources updates for 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009.

I would also like to express our appreciation for the very short turnaround on our request of November 21 and the provision from your department of information for the detailed breakdown of funding for the national capital region, national programs, details on DFO's involvement in the environmental assessment and the construction of the bridge at Rivière-des-Prairies, and a detailed description of how science is funded, the role of science management committee, and the chart that DFO officials used during the hearing, which showed budget increases for the department from 1996 onward. That's a seven-day turnaround on that information, and it was needed by the committee to pursue this hearing today. We appreciate your prompt reply.

We'll go to our first questioner, Mr. Cuzner.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I commented before when you appeared before the committee that it's always a pleasure to have you here, and certainly it's interesting to find out how things have changed. The view of the room has changed, from where you used to sit, in this chair, to where you're sitting in that chair. It's interesting to find out how your view of some issues may have changed over the last number of months.

I addressed this question about the Atlantic salmon endowment fund to Mr. Murray last week, trying to seek some clarification as to the difference between the announcement made in Fredericton last month, when you and regional minister Thompson and ACOA minister MacKay made the announcement of the investment in Atlantic salmon, and the announcement work-up that was made the year prior, when there was an agreement ready to be signed and then we were thrown into the election.

Is there a great difference between what was being done—what the eventual deal was linked with—and the initiative going forward? Could you maybe spell out the differences?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I think there is just mainly one, Mr. Chair. The former government, if you want to look at the budgetary process, brought a promise; we brought the cheque.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Yes. And in the absence of a real answer, I guess that will do.

Is there any difference from what was being done, though, Minister? Is it essentially the same? You were part of this committee. The member for Sackville—Eastern Shore...Musquodoboit pushed hard, although he voted against the budget. We allocated the $30 million, and he voted against that. Still, he has been a strong advocate in this committee.

In essence, is the program the same?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Generally it is, and most of the players are the same; for instance, a number of the people who were nominated for the board.

The thing is, this was talked about in theory and no real money was put on the table, and we brought the money. I was serious when I said that.

Other than that, we didn't go in to try to change the world at all. We worked closely with people involved with salmon—people like Bill Taylor, as you know, on the east coast, and others who have led the fight in the different provinces. It's the people who met us.

The first time I heard about this was when you, I guess, and the chair and others were touring Atlantic Canada, and we had presentations on the need to do something for wild salmon. Out of that, it was the push of the committee, undoubtedly, that got this idea moving. There was the fact that we had done it on the west coast, and it's just as important on the east coast. We followed through on that. We picked it up immediately after we came in and got it through the process so that the work can now begin.

Other than that, we haven't really made any changes or asked the committee or those involved to do anything different, except do the work they want to do. We're just here to help them.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

As my closing comment on it, I understand that the cheque had been cut, but we just didn't know who to make it out to. The Atlantic Salmon Conservation Foundation has stepped forward, so we're really happy—and I know the committee is happy—that the program is up and running.

If I could get a couple of comments—

Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Minister.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

No, that's okay, except that the cheque wasn't really cut.

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Had the money been booked? Maybe Mr. Murray can...because he was there for both announcements. I think he was present for both announcements.

11:25 a.m.

Larry Murray Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I can't get into whether the money was booked or not. In fact, I usually don't know whether it's booked or not, quite frankly.

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Mr. Minister, in the allocation there seems to be more money for the coast guard, or there is an appearance of it anyway. I know you've long advocated a stronger presence on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks and on the Flemish Cap, and greater resources to be applied there. What we're seeing now with acquisition of vessels is that there is some concern now, and there may be some unforeseen delays.

Can we attribute any of this to the fact that now we're trying to exert some additional presence in the Arctic with new vessels that are going to be armed? Is there a conflict with what we're trying to do in the Fleming Cap and in the Arctic?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

No, Mr. Chair, but that's a very good topic to discuss.

First, you started by saying that we're seeing an increased presence and extra attention being paid to the coast guard. I give the credit for that to this committee and some of the people around this table. I believe it was the major study that was done. There are people here today from both sides of the coast guard. We have the commissioner, and we have the head of one of the major unions in the audience. These people realize that it was a collective effort. We had very good cooperation as we went around. People came forth and laid their cards on the table. Our report to the government and the push we made collectively got the ball rolling, and we've been able to keep it rolling.

As we said then, the coast guard in this country is an icon, one that has tremendous potential. We have actually increased our presence on the Nose and Tail and the Flemish Cap. In the meantime, we are increasing our presence generally. Right now, we have eight smaller boats that are going to be built. Some are in Canada. We have some larger boats being built.

When we talk about armed presence, this is not from our shop or from coast guard; we're hearing that from DND. Let me just say that all of us collectively--and I'm not just talking about government members, I think I speak for everybody here--realize we need to strengthen our presence in the north. But we don't need to reinvent the wheel about what's needed. We can actually pull out a map that shows, as we speak today, seven or eight icebreakers in the north that are doing the job in relation to the communications challenge, the search and rescue, and scientific work. The coast guard is called upon to do an awful lot. We can do a lot more.

I don't see any plan of attack from the north, certainly not in the near future. But if we need a presence at any one time, working with DND to coordinate activities and maybe using some of the coast guard boats can easily be done.

Basically I'm saying yes, we need a presence, and we will have an increased presence. If the north is going to be opened up and developed, I believe the coast guard has a major part to play. But this is an add-on. Some of the money you see here, such as $275 million-plus for repairing the fleet and moving forward, is not to replace or substitute anything; it's to enhance. Certainly as long as I'm around anyway, the attention being paid to the Nose and Tail and the Flemish Cap and offshore Atlantic Canada won't be lessened.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Do I have one more question?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Yes, you do.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I have a fellow Cape Bretoner in the audience today, who is the chairman of the North of Smokey Fishermen's Association. I think he'd be interested to know.... You, being a former educator, will be able to walk me through this. You've indicated that you put additional resources in small craft harbours, but it clearly states in the revised plan spending that for 2006-07 we're looking at $96.6 million; going forward to 2007-08, $76.8 million; and then down to $73.7 million.

I wasn't the greatest math student at StFX, but explain to me how $96 million down to $73 million is an increase.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Loyola Hearn Conservative St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Chair, he mentioned that I was an educator. The one thing about educating is that you can only work with what you have. However, his math is good.

I'm sure you realize that with budgets, your projections are based upon what you have today. On my very first day at the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I introduced the topic of the need for infrastructure. That led to the committee deciding to do a report, which it did. Our small craft harbours director quite openly laid on the table that we would need $400 million to bring our wharves up to par. Our solely owned wharves were 21% or 23% or something unsafe.

All of us put on a push. We had a good report again, and we got $100 million into the budget. So for the last five years, we have had $20 million a year. That now ends. In this past year, we got extra money on top of that. Our hope of course is to be able to build on that as we move forward in our overall fisheries plan.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

What department--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I am going to cut you off because you're out of time.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

What's the magic number? What can we expect?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

We appreciate the question, Mr. Cuzner, and we appreciate the minister's attempt to answer, but you're going to have to wait until the next round because you're a minute over and everyone wants a turn to ask a question here.

Mr. Blais.