The House is on summer break, scheduled to return Sept. 15

Evidence of meeting #33 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seals.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

David Lavigne  Science Advisor, International Fund for Animal Welfare
Rebecca Aldworth  Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

12:10 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

Yes. I was arrested during last year's commercial seal hunt for allegedly being slightly within ten metres of a sealing vessel. We were not within ten metres of a sealing vessel. We did not break any regulation. We were subsequently charged months later, following the European Parliament's passing of a resolution stating that they would be looking for a ban of harp and hooded seal products. Shortly thereafter, I was charged. I believe it was politically motivated, and we haven't yet had the opportunity to be—

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Your answer was yes, so it's obviously someone's opinion that you did something wrong. It's like me saying to arrest the bank robber if I robbed the bank myself, I would think.

I want to take exception to your remark, by the way, that Newfoundland politicians wouldn't say anything about the seal hunt if they thought there was something. That's not correct.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

I said they wouldn't be able to.

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

If I thought this seal hunt was wrong, I would oppose it regardless of what the political consequences would be. I would suggest to you that you get more benefits because of the seal hunt than I do. I say that quite sincerely. That's what you're about, okay? I'm about being right. If this seal hunt was wrong, if I did not think it was a factor in the collapse of our fish stocks, which I strongly do.... I believe global warming is a factor, as Dr. Lavigne has said, and I believe our fishing practices in the past have been a factor. But I also very strongly believe that our harp seal population, at six million, is a factor that has to be addressed.

I support the seal hunt for two reasons. I believe it's humane, but the other thing is that I think it's a factor in bringing back the rural way of life in my province.

I sat in this committee a few weeks ago and I listened to the testimony of two veterinarians, Dr. Alice Crook and Dr. Charles Caraguel. I listened to them very closely, as intently as I've listened to you. They said to everyone on this committee that this hunt is very humane. I have no reason to doubt what they were telling me. If they had said it was inhumane, I would have listened to them. They're veterinarians and I'm not. I'm not a sealer and I'm not a veterinarian. They categorically told this committee that this hunt is most humane. They talked about how they did brain tests and so on, with the way the seals were killed, and one thing and another. They said this is the most humane hunt in the world. Those are not our words.

You're out there. You're more trained at it than I am. Yet you come in here the way you are, when we've had expert witnesses, independent from us, in front of this committee who have told us this hunt is very humane. I guess the question is, why should we listen to you, because you're not trained any more than I am. You're trained at raising money, but you're not trained in killing animals.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

This I object to. I'm not a fundraiser.

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

No, maybe not directly, but you put this stuff up and it raises money.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

I am not a fundraiser, and my organization spends far more to end the commercial seal hunt than we've ever raised on it, as would be the case for any organization campaigning to end it.

I would state that eight years of experience observing the seal hunt does give me some experience. No, I'm not a veterinarian. I would say I've observed the seal hunt by many times the amount Alice Crook ever has. I would also say that when Alice Crook and her colleagues have observed the commercial seal hunt, they've done so in the presence of DFO enforcement officers, when sealers knew they were being observed and knew what the purposes of the observation were. I've observed the hunt with enforcement officers as well, and they're two different hunts. Much as you would not speed if you're passing by a police car, sealers don't skin animals alive when the very people who can arrest them for doing so are standing there.

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

They don't skin them alive anyway.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

I believe they do. I've seen it.

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

That's just pure nonsense.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Canadian Wildlife Issues, Humane Society of the United States

Rebecca Aldworth

I've seen it, year after year.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

The chair does need to interject here.

All of our members are going over their time.

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Sorry, Mr. Chairman.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I'm trying to be lenient with time. I'm also trying to let all of our witnesses certainly have time for rebuttal.

We do need to hear from David Lavigne, and we're two and a half minutes over right now. But I appreciate that this is a good, open discussion, as it needs to be.

Just quickly, Dr. Lavigne.

12:15 p.m.

Science Advisor, International Fund for Animal Welfare

Dr. David Lavigne

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be very brief.

Alice Crook is in fact an author on two of the reports I referred to. I would simply refer you to her reports. You can see that her group of veterinarians, like every other veterinary group, has documented incidents of humane killing. She also participated in the veterinary panel that made eleven recommendations that need to be implemented to improve the killing associated with this hunt.

I am not privy to what she told you, but the written record is very clear.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Mr. Blais, it's your turn now.

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you. I had to leave for a few minutes because I had to make a phone call with regard to another subject. Please understand that it had nothing to do with your testimony. I have already heard a lot and I can take more.

Why is it that you are trying to convince us to reject outright the conclusions of the group of independent veterinarians who appeared before us? This group held work sessions in 2005 and produced a report which I have here and which you probably also have. I could name these veterinarians, but I don't think that is necessary, and in any case I do not have enough time to do so. They were not paid by anyone and did not get together to defend one position rather than another. These people are independent scientists. They were not paid by the department nor by any other organization. Now, perhaps a scientist might try to tell us stories, but when you have a group of scientists who have signed a report, it seems to me that we are dealing with certainties and not approximations. But you seem to rather easily question what these veterinarians have concluded.

I do not understand why you outright rejected the conclusion of this group of independent veterinarians, which is that the hunt, as it is practised under current conditions, is sustainable and humane.

How can you tell us that these veterinarians did not reach their conclusions scientifically?

12:20 p.m.

Science Advisor, International Fund for Animal Welfare

Dr. David Lavigne

I think you misunderstand my intent. I quoted three veterinary reports because in fact they are entirely consistent with my own observations. What I'm criticizing, I guess, is the interpretation, if anything.

I'll give you one example. I've heard here that this is a very inhumane hunt, and recommendation four is that seals should not be shot in the water. The fact of the matter is that seals are shot in the water. The fact of the matter is that in open water hunts, one animal is landed for every animal that is struck and lost. So 50% of the animals that are hit are seriously, probably mortally, wounded, and sink to the bottom of the ocean.

That's the veterinary report. I'm not disputing their observations. It's just that....

I'll give you another example. DFO likes to say that 98% of the animals are killed humanely. That's not what the other Alice Crook report says at all. It says—in a bit of, I think, poor wording—“up to” 98%. But if you look at their various studies, some of the numbers are far below 98%. And the 98% comes from a peculiar observation of three live animals wandering around on the deck of a sealing vessel.

My point is that, as I indicated in my presentation, the veterinary studies support my claims that this hunt does not satisfy 21st century standards of humane killing.

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Lavigne, I see that you have a doctorate in philosophy. Is that your background, namely a doctorate in philosophy?

12:20 p.m.

Science Advisor, International Fund for Animal Welfare

Dr. David Lavigne

No, my PhD is in zoology. I have worked with marine mammals. In fact I've worked with seals. I also have a doctor of philosophy in biology, from the University of Oslo. All advanced degrees in most parts of the world are called doctor of philosophy.

My specialization in one PhD was zoology, in particular seals, and my specialization in the other was biology, particularly seals.

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Are you a volunteer or do you work for IFAW?

12:20 p.m.

Science Advisor, International Fund for Animal Welfare

Dr. David Lavigne

No, I am employed--paid--as a scientific adviser to the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Do I have any time left? is it over?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

No, we have to....

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

If you do not speak up, you do not object. Ms. Aldworth...