Evidence of meeting #44 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Loyola Sullivan  Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
David Bevan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I call the meeting to order, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a briefing with the ambassador for fisheries conservation.

I welcome our witnesses. From the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we have Ambassador Loyola Sullivan, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, and Mr. Wendell Sanford, director, oceans and environmental law division. From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Mr. David Bevan, assistant deputy minister, fisheries and aquaculture management.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for coming. I know everyone has a busy agenda today, and we're starting a bit late, so I'll ask Mr. Sullivan if he'd like to begin.

11:15 a.m.

Loyola Sullivan Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here and for the committee's ongoing interest in overfishing.

As you mentioned, I am accompanied by two officials here from the departments as representatives. David Bevan is assistant deputy minister of fisheries and aquaculture management with DFO, and Wendell Sanford is a director with DFAIT in the ocean law division.

I just want to touch very quickly on some of the particular areas I have been dealing with since my appointment in late January. We'll follow the deck you have there, and I'll make reference to the slide numbers as we move through so that you can follow it.

I have participated in a variety of briefings with DFO and with DFAIT over the past number of weeks. I have been meeting with numerous Canadian stakeholders, and also with key players on an international level.

I participated in a meeting with Minister Hearn and the EU Ambassador to Canada, Mr. Prince, and in fact I had another bilateral meeting with him yesterday. I met with the director of the United States National Marine Fisheries Service, Dr. William Hogarth, and with Mr. Petar Cobankovic, the Croatian Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Water Management, which includes fisheries in that area.

I met with European journalists on a study visit to St. John's in February. I had an opportunity to meet with representatives of eight different countries, and at the International Boston Seafood Show I had an opportunity to meet with many Canadian seafood producers, numerous other stakeholders, provincial fisheries ministers, and senior officials in other departments. I had individual meetings with different provinces on their particular issues, and I also participated in numerous round tables with industry there. I had a second opportunity to meet with Dr. Hogarth on issues of concern between Canada and the U.S.

Tomorrow I will be meeting with the Danish ambassador to Canada, His Excellency Poul Erik Dam Kristensen. I had an opportunity to take a first-hand look and fly out over the NAFO regulatory area with enforcement officials to take a look at what's happening, get a personal view of enforcement measures, and be briefed on what's happening on that particular front.

We are on slide 2. We're meeting at a very crucial time in international fisheries. Many stocks continue to decline. I have witnessed personally the devastating social and economic impacts this had on Newfoundland and Labrador back in the early 1990s. There is strong public pressure to combat overfishing. Since that time parliamentarians, the provinces, stakeholders, the environmental organizations, and the Canadian public in general have been calling for fundamental changes to the way the world manages its fisheries. There is increasing momentum to address shortcomings in international fisheries governance, but there is also a growing recognition of the importance of not only managing fish stocks but also the ecosystems and the biodiversity that support those stocks.

One important tool for that is the regional fisheries management organizations. Canada and other countries are seeking to make these more effective at what they do, particularly with combatting illegal, unregulated, and unreported fishing in international waters, but especially within the RFMOs. A commitment to tackle overfishing and to increase international cooperation in this regard is central to my mandate.

We need to work within a broader oceans agenda, and I want to emphasize that this is not just a regional issue. It's an area in which Canada can play a major world leadership role—not just to end overfishing, but also to deal with our marine ecosystems and our ocean protection in general. We must work collaboratively if we are going to remain credible with our key allies across international forums.

Next is slide 3. Canada has developed a strategy to strengthen international fisheries and ocean governance under the direction of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans in cooperation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The strategy is composed of several elements: managing sustainable fisheries for the future, and also managing for marine, environmental, and ecosystem sustainability. This involves strengthening regional fisheries management organizations and other governance adherence in order to achieve sustainability on high-seas fishing.

We have to be sure we take into account high-seas biodiversity in the ecosystems, which are an integral part of that process. We have to ensure that the management approaches we use on the high seas complement those we're carrying out in our own domestic waters and in the domestic waters of other coastal states.

Building an understanding of fisheries and oceans involves making much needed investments. Investments in science on the high seas are very important for these stocks and the ecosystems that generate this data that's so important if we're going to have sustainable and responsible decision-making. This research and reform will certainly help Canada to implement a precautionary and an ecosystem approach on the high seas. Such research will ensure the sustainability of the ecosystems and associated resources both in national waters and within RFMOs.

For Canada, an ecosystem approach has impacted on other marine sectors too, particularly on fishing, shipping, oil and gas, and also on ecotourism, and it must recognize the sustainability of coastal communities.

Turning to slide 4, our mandate will include a number of responsibilities, such as a leadership role in Canada's efforts to reform international fisheries governance and management, as well as on other key files. I will act as the personal representative of Minister MacKay and Minister Hearn on fisheries issues internationally. I will work to strengthen bilateral relations and cooperation with other countries and influence, including at the political level, any resolutions on any bilateral fishing irritants with other countries.

We must generate awareness and political will. I will raise awareness, in Canada and abroad, of our strategies to strengthen fisheries governance on an international basis, and I will obtain commitments from other countries to address a number of the challenges that we have out there today, including combatting both overfishing generally and illegal, unreported, and non-regulated fishing on the high seas. I will work to ensure that we have timely implementation of reforms in NAFO and other RFMOs, ones that emphasize greater adherence to scientific advice, compliance and enforcement measures, and the adoption of ecosystem and precautionary approaches in fisheries management.

We must get other countries to sign on to implement other international instruments like UNFA and to take a greater responsibility as port states, as flag states, and as market states. We must be proactive and exert influence to solve those specific problems. All of my dealings with other countries will be very important.

We recognize that Canada itself does not have a perfect record in fisheries management, but we're striving to improve that record. We're not expecting other countries or RFMOs to do more or take on more responsibility than we would expect of ourselves. It is pertinent that Canada lead by example by strengthening bilateral fisheries relations and cooperation. That's slide 5.

Developing and maintaining close bilateral relationships with key countries is crucial. Recently government has tailored efforts to strengthen bilateral relations particularly on fisheries and sealing issues. We need to resolve bilateral fisheries issues with the United States, not only in terms of bilateral issues dealing with them, but also in terms of gaining their cooperation in dealing in the international fora where we share so many of the same common objectives.

It's also important with other key players in regional fisheries management, such as the EU and Japan. We must build confidence with countries that are traditionally opposed to our objectives. We have to build trust and confidence with EU member states, especially Spain and Portugal. We must also walk with like-minded countries so that we can solve international fisheries issues that are common to all of us, such as working within the North Atlantic Fisheries Ministers Conference to develop closer links on North Atlantic issues with countries that have objectives similar to those that we have here in our country. As ambassador, I will be active on those files also.

In modernizing fishing governance, there are challenges. Arguably, NAFO no longer faces as many serious challenges as many other RFMOs around the world, particularly on overfishing, but if we are to achieve the results we're seeking, to rebuild stocks and have sustainable fisheries, we must be unwavering in our pursuit of improvement, and people must comply with the rules. We must modernize RFMOs.

Canada has emphasized the need to bring RFMO management practices into line with modern instruments and tools, such as the United Nations Fish Stocks Agreement. We have made progress with NAFO, but many other RFMOs continue to lag behind. Fishing overcapacity also exists in many fleets. On the high seas, fishing states need to reduce capacity. It is important that we manage to conservation goals, not manage to capacity.

On increased cooperation among RFMOs, conservation management measures need to be consistent between the different RFMOs. Also, we need greater coordination among all RFMOs to eliminate loopholes that facilitate IUU fishing. The estimates of the value of IUU fishing range anywhere from $4 billion to $9 billion U.S. annually.

Canada has made combatting IUU fishing a priority in its strategy to combat overfishing generally and is committed to talking with all nations to build a credible management regime on the high seas. With the other members who participated in the high-seas task force, we have committed to advance a number of initiatives. Among these, Canada has taken the lead on developing an international performance standard for RFMOs. This will help address and have mechanisms to reduce IUU fishing. These will be available for RFMOs to use as an assessment tool.

On reforming NAFO, we are making progress, and 2004-05 initiatives on international governance have increased monitoring and enforcement activities. These have resulted in improved compliance in the NAFO regulatory area. Increased compliance is especially visible in areas in fishing effort—in the number of days, the fleet size, the number of vessels that are there—the catch of moratoria species, and the excessive catch of Greenland halibut. The NAFO annual general meeting back in December has laid the groundwork for permanent changes through modernization of the convention and through improved governance. We hope to finalize this at NAFO's meeting in Montreal in April.

Canada will build on the success it achieved at the 2006 annual meeting of NAFO. We look to improved governance and also an ongoing introduction of new monitoring, control, and surveillance measures that are capable of addressing non-compliant behaviour in the NAFO regulatory area.

Maintaining change in behaviour on the water is critical if we are going to have success. Canada is adamant in its resolve that it needs to manage fisheries in the NAFO regulatory area in a manner that is consistent with how we manage fisheries within our own area of total jurisdiction, rebuilding fish stocks over time in the NAFO regulatory area to a level that ensures the sustainability of those stocks for future generations in every country that fishes those stocks. We must broaden application with an ecosystem approach.

In summation, these actions create conditions that would provide a stronger course if we are to rebuild our fish stocks in this area.

Slide 8 is dealing with “Promoting Canada's Sealing interests”. It's a source of great frustration to me personally, and I'm sure to the government—and I know the committee has discussed this on previous occasions—that we are targeted by misguided animal rights groups and by people and governments who bow to their campaigns instead of dealing with other governments.

We must have a proactive sealing campaign. I've been very active on this file since taking over this position. I met with European journalists on a study visit to St. John's back in February to discuss the hunt, and I'll be leaving next Saturday to five European countries over a period of 13 days to push this issue in a more proactive campaign, commencing next week.

I will be working bilaterally and exerting strong influence where required on behalf of Ministers Hearn and MacKay to defend our interests. We must work with like-minded countries, and over the coming weeks and months I will be creating a network of like-minded countries, those who can work together with us to have innovative solutions to the challenges that face all of us.

We must continue the message. The message hasn't changed. The seal hunt is sustainable and humane. It's been a part of the culture and the economic fabric of many parts of this country and parts of other countries.

We must advocate for sustainable communities. However, I'll be advocating and promoting the seal hunt as an integral part of those sustainable communities. We have the Inuit, for example, in our country, and Newfoundland and Labrador, Atlantic Canada in general, and in Quebec the Magdalen Islands are an important part of this approach to sustainable communities. I expect all Canadians to lend their support in the promotion of our seal hunt.

Once again, I want to mention that I appreciate the work the committee has done in this regard in the past.

Turning to the final slide, as we move forward, in recognizing my priorities in the short term, we'll have to focus on establishing key relations, strengthening the relations we have with critical allies, and promoting Canadian interests as strongly as is required.

This slide outlines some of these priority actions. I've made reference to advocacy in Europe on the seal hunt. I just recently met again with Dr. Bill Hogarth, director of the United States National Marine Fisheries Service. I've had two occasions to deal with him on issues that are common to both our countries.

I'm meeting with the Danish ambassador tomorrow. I'll be representing the government in supporting Canadian seafood producers at the international seafood exhibition in Brussels later on in April, and I will be attending the North Atlantic Fisheries Ministers Conference that will be held June 20 to 23 in Greenland, pushing those issues. Those are some of the short-term things.

I'll stop at that. I thank you for your attention. I'm open to any particular questions or comments you have.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you for that briefing, Mr. Sullivan. You are welcome at the committee. We appreciate your showing up today.

Before we go to our first questioner, who will be Mr. Simms, I'd like to bring you up to date. The committee is continuing. You mentioned several times our working on the sealing issue in the past, but we're certainly working on it in the present as well.

It's an issue that's been near and dear to this committee. We've worked hard to reach consensus and to find some new ways of approaching this age-old problem. Certainly when we finish this report on sealing, we'll have some recommendations in it that should be very useful to you in your approach with the Europeans and on this issue in the future.

We'll go to Mr. Simms.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. Chair, I thank the ambassador for coming, and members of the departments respectively.

This is a motion we brought forward a few weeks back, and I appreciate the expediency of this.

I want to delve into strengthening of relations. You talked about the fact that you hope to strengthen bilateral relations and, if I paraphrase you correctly, seek out the irritants by which these relations have been strained. Can you give me an example of what some of these irritants are to you?

11:30 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

My reference to irritants wasn't necessarily to building relationships. One of the goals was to work with irritants between different countries. Resolving irritants has strengthened relations, no doubt. Both of them mesh there.

I'll throw out an example of an irritant. The Machias Seal Island lobster fishery would be an irritant between us and the U.S., and we're working on that issue—or whether there will be a renewal, hopefully, of the Pacific salmon treaty. While it may not be an irritant, it was very successful. There are five chapters coming up. If it's necessary for me to be involved in that issue, I will be, but we're optimistic on that one that it's moving well. There is very much cooperation and very common—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

But by which form do you seek these irritants? To you, if you say there are so many irritants in the species you've mentioned, you go to Europe. How do you plan to address this with the European Commission or the European Union?

11:30 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

I certainly will address that, but my reference to irritants was in bilateral irritants that are occurring with countries. I have to work with these to get a resolution to those irritants—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Okay, let's go back to the syndicated—

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

Overall, if we look at NAFO, for example, and if you wanted me to elaborate on how we might deal with that, one of the areas in advancing governance in the NAFO area was last September agreeing to changes in enforcement and management, which came into effect on January 1, and also changes to the convention, which will be discussed in April in Montreal.

If we advance these issues and get agreement there, and I think all the countries right now that are parties to NAFO, except two—and one has no fishing and will limit fishing—have agreed with the instrument of UNFA. So in other words, they've been buying into, getting people to—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Can I ask you about that? They've been buying into NAFO. Let me focus on NAFO and all the things you've mentioned, the improvements over the past year, two years.

In the past, you have been a strong advocate of custodial management. Do you think we have achieved custodial management today?

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

I'd like to indicate that in the past I have never personally rendered an opinion on custodial management overall, but overall, I feel the situation that's important is that we have to manage fisheries in our FMOs, which are in areas on the high seas that all countries have a right to, in the same manner that we would manage our fisheries inside our exclusive economic zone.

If we could bring that same management to NAFO—and I feel we're on the path to doing that—April will certainly give us some indication of whether the resolve is there with the other NAFO states that are contracting parties to NAFO to do that.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

If a citation is served to any particular vessel—for lack of a better term, I'll use a pirate vessel on the open seas—and we know who they are—They are the usual suspects. You've toured the area; there's a fairly long list of them. When a citation is served, whether it be mesh size, moratorium species, overfishing, bycatch, whatever, in your opinion, what should happen then?

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

First of all, I think we have to look at two periods, prior to September NAFO and post-September NAFO. During this period last year, for example, there were 28 on-board inspections and seven violations. This year, with 30 since September, there have been no violations or no citations.

So I'm confident, and time will certainly tell, that the improvements brought in at NAFO in September—and I hope agreeing on changes to the convention to look at more responsible management—will involve the precautionary and ecosystem-based approach, dealing with objection procedure on our part, which would change the NAFO convention. We've already initiated and moved forward on enforcement measures. They're already in play and they're—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Such as—

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

They're in play. Enforcement measures would be if there's a violation, a serious violation, some repeat offenders, fishing for directed species in these areas, you would have to go and report.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

In your opinion, what is a just penalty?

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

A just penalty would be a penalty that's going to be a very, very significant deterrent to fishing in that area.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Such as what?

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

It would inflict such hardship on them that it would discourage that fishing in the future.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

How?

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

That would be a just penalty in my estimation.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Indeed, and I agree, but elaborate further.

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

Overall, each country has its own system of jurisprudence. If a case is brought before any particular country, we can set legislation in our country, and our courts could render penalties in line with what we do.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

To them? Do you think they should be penalized to our way of thinking? To our—

11:35 a.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

We would like to see a common system of penalties and punishment doled out to whichever contracting party in NAFO was there, regardless of where, but we don't have jurisdiction over the court system in other countries. We just don't have that. That's fundamental. I mean UNCLOS—