Fisheries Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're meeting with the parliamentary delegation from Indonesia. Welcome to the chair of that delegation, Mr. Pasaribu.

On behalf of our committee members, I must say we're very interested in hearing what you have to say, and to have a full discussion here this morning. Unfortunately we have only an hour before our next presenters are here, but we're certainly happy to take that hour and discuss items of concern for both Canada and Indonesia.

Do we have interpretation? Am I talking too fast?

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu, Team Leader, Parliamentary Delegation from Indonesia, Commission IV (Agriculture, Forestry, Ocean, Fisheries and Food Products)]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to apologize because we had a problem with our luggage with Air Canada from Toronto this morning. I'm very sorry about the not-so-polite clothes. I'm very sorry about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

It's not a problem.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Mr. Chairman, first of all, we would like to express our thanks for your very nice welcome. It is our pleasure to be here in Canada. We come here not only to strengthen the friendship between the people of Canada and Indonesia, but also to present our Commission IV, dealing with the fisheries and oceans and to do a comparison study here. The comparison study that we hold today is related to our intention to initiate new bills concerning the coastal and marine area management and the ocean economic policy.

As you might have known, Indonesia is the largest archipelago country in the world. It consists of 17,504 islands and 81,000 kilometres of coastal borders. It is estimated that 60% of our Indonesian population of 220 million live in the coastal and marine areas. The coastal and marine areas, which are relatively narrow, have potential biological and non-biological natural resources, at environmental examination, that are important for the basic necessities of the inhabitants' lives and the basic capital for Indonesian national development.

But in the last decade there have been indications that the coastal and marine areas that are susceptible have been damaged by human activities in exploiting the resources or by natural disasters like the tsunami. In addition to the accumulation of the partial exploitation in the coastal and marine areas, other activities in the upper course of the coastal areas have also caused damage to the coastal and marine resources.

On the other hand, awareness of the strategic areas of the coastal and marine areas management in sustainable and integrated works, as well as on the basis of the society, is relatively low. The facts indicate that the principles of management have not been integrated with the development activities in all sectors and areas. The management system of coastal and marine areas is still not able to eliminate the factors that cause damage and is still not able to give the biological resources the chance to recover naturally. These conditions can lead to the loss of the valuable resources and foreclose future options and benefits associated with the use of the resources. I believe that those kinds of problems have also happened in any country with coastal areas, including maybe Canada.

As we well know, Canada has the world's longest coastline, which is maybe about 243,000 kilometres. That is why we'd like to learn about your experiences, your laws, your management, your regulations on these issues.

Besides that, I'd like to inform you about and invite the House of Commons of Canada to set up a Canada–Indonesia bilateral parliamentary cooperation group. The purpose of the group is to work together for greater friendship and cooperation between parliamentarians of Canada and Indonesia, and thereby serve to foster better relations and mutual understanding between our respective parliaments and peoples represented therein. I join the group with 14 members of the House of Representatives of the Republic of Indonesia, who come from all factions. I hope for your acceptance of this idea for a better relationship between Indonesia and Canada.

Before I conclude my introductory remarks, allow me to introduce members of the delegation.

I am Pasaribu from the Golkar party. These are my friends Faqih Chaironi, Nurhadi Musyawir, Pak Hilman, Pak Djoemad, Pak Idham, Pak Wowo, and my friend Darwis. And of course, there are Pak Rusman and Pak Apri Hananto, and then of course, you know our friend from the Indonesian embassy, Pak Siringoringo. Then, of course, you know Trisari Paramita, our interpreter, from the Indonesian embassy.

Thank you very much again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much. Certainly it's a privilege to have you here today for these bilateral discussions.

Perhaps before I turn it over to our first questioner, I'll introduce our group.

Members of Parliament on the government side include Mr. Blaine Calkins, Mr. James Lunney, and Mr. Randy Kamp; from the official opposition, the Honourable Lawrence MacAulay; from the Bloc Québécois, Mr. Raynald Blais and Mr. Gérard Asselin; and from the New Democratic Party, Mr. Peter Stoffer.

You can see we have an all-party committee here. Actually a majority of the committee members are from the opposition parties, so it makes for an interesting committee sometimes, but we pride ourselves on being a committee that is able to work on behalf of the fisheries straight across Canada. The majority of the time, quite frankly, we get along quite well--that's not all of the time, but the majority of the time.

We will allow for interpretation, but with no further ado, I will turn it over to Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's a pleasure to have you here today. It would be interesting to hear some of.... How many million people did you indicate? Was it 400 million or 40 million living on the coastline of Indonesia? Pretty well everybody's on the coastline of Indonesia.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

It's 60% of the 220 million people of Indonesia; 60% of them stay in the coastal areas and in the small islands.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, my figure was correct, then, Mr. Chairman.

What I would be interested in first is on your fisheries management and what you do have. Here we have the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We have fisheries officers, and there's always the problem with funding and making sure there's enough funding to do the job properly. I would like you to indicate to us what your situation is in protection.

You're talking about exploiting resources, losing resources, and management problems, I would take it. What kind of system do you have in place to protect your resources?

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Of course, that is why I'm here, to learn from you. In the Indonesian Parliament, our commission for dealing with the fisheries and oceans management is going to finish what they call a bill about the coastal area management and small islands.

We have many problems regarding what they call illegal fishing. We have many problems about pollution in the ocean and the coastal areas, especially in the Malacca Straits within Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. We don't have what maybe you have here, the coast guard. We have so many problems--economic exclusive zones to 100 kilometres. Beside that, we have many problems on how to control not only our coastal areas but the ocean in Indonesia.

Many people in Indonesia are very traditional fisherman. So there are big problems. That is why now our commission is going to finish what they call a bill of the coastal and marine areas management, to be enacted maybe next August.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

What you're telling me is that you have to have this act put in place, with proper regulations or laws. So are you telling me there's not proper enforcement or a proper framework in place to make sure that illegal fishing doesn't take place, not a proper framework in place to stop pollution?

Is there any problem when people are caught overfishing? Is there anybody to catch them overfishing? Is there a problem with polluters? And if you catch the polluters, what's done with the polluters? Are there laws in place, even if you do catch them, to deal with them?

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

With the recent big-bang reform we've had in Indonesia, we've changed the special management, and of course we've had to change many acts in Indonesia. With big-bang reform has come more and more decentralization, more autonomy for our provinces and counties, and then more democratization.

We have, of course, an act for this, a fisheries act; the problem is how to implement it. Enforcement is very difficult because of our long coastal area in Indonesia, the second longest after Canada. That is why we created the new laws, the oceans management bill and the other one, the coastal areas and small islands bill, which are still in Parliament, to be finished in perhaps two months' time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I'll make a quick comment, if I may, before I turn it back to Mr. MacAulay.

Our offshore is controlled by the federal government. It's not controlled by the provincial governments. We have in Canada a 200-mile limit. The controls within the 200-mile limit really are broken down in a couple of jurisdictions. The primary jurisdiction is Fisheries and Oceans. They set the TAC, the limit on the amount of fish you can catch. They do the fisheries science, and they do the enforcement part of that.

The other areas out there are coast guard and the military, or the Canadian navy. They deal with different issues. But on your issue of pollution, your issue of bilge water control, your issue of fisheries enforcement, the science and biology that's done on the oceans, that's done by Fisheries and Oceans.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I apologize. I guess I should have been talking more about what we do instead of what you do. But there are some examples from us that I wouldn't take, if I were you.

We didn't really handle the cod fishery too well here. Everybody likes to blame everybody else.

I think that when you look at the regulations, as the chairman rightly said, we have different departments watching different areas that are involved. For example, with the lobster fishery in our area--and it's a rich fishery for the fishermen--there are rules in place. We have Department of Fisheries and Oceans officials who patrol the area. If you were caught taking in something illegal, you probably would lose two weeks of fishing, which would be thousands and thousands of dollars. This is the kind of thing we do in order to try to preserve our stocks.

If you're interested, and I guess you are, it would be interesting to watch. We have Bill C-45 coming before the House of Commons. That is the new Fisheries Act. Everybody is not in 100% agreement with everything in that, and that will be an interesting display of democracy taking its role through Canada. And I think it's a good thing too; the government probably needs quite a bit of help getting this legislation straightened out. But that's what this committee is here for.

When we put new legislation in place, this is where it comes first, or supposedly does. Often what happens is that the legislation is introduced, and then, perhaps before second reading, the government allows it to come to committee to give the committee time to go across the country and talk to fisher people from coast to coast and to be sure that now they have the input. Sometimes it's after second reading, and that can be a difference of opinion. That's done so that you have the input of the industry.

Everybody is on the same wavelength in this country. We have to protect our resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

We have to allow her to interpret, Lawrence. I have to interrupt.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Did I say too much?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

She's good, but I don't know if she's that good.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I apologize. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Blais, s'il vous plaît.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, everyone.

You can easily understand why the language I'm using is French.

First, I apologize, but I don't necessarily know the details of your situation. However, from what I understood, in view of the extent of your coastlines and the diversity of the fisheries as such, you will have to make some decisions in order to set your priorities. I imagine that, in Indonesia, as is the case here, money doesn't grow on trees and is not necessarily found on the rocks or in the water.

Will these priorities ultimately force you to sacrifice the traditional inshore fishery in favour of the so-called commercial or modern fishery? I get the impression we're making that sacrifice here as well, even though, in a way, our financial resources allocated to Fisheries and Oceans Canada are much greater than in your country. However, I believe we are nevertheless making sacrifices whereby the inshore fisheries are unfortunately being sacrificed.

[Trisari Paramita, Interpreter, Parliamentary Delegation from Indonesia, Commission IV (Agriculture, Forestry, Ocean, Fisheries and Food Products)]

Maybe this question can be answered later for a more lively discussion. Can we save this question for later?

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I didn't think my question was difficult. Pardon me if I made a mistake, but the idea is this: I get the impression that the extent of your coastlines forces you to set priorities, and priorities unfortunately mean sacrifices.

I believe we have the same situation in Canada. The extent of our coastlines and the financial means we have do not necessarily coincide 100% with needs. So choices unfortunately have to be made.

Furthermore, how are you managing to support the so-called traditional fishery? There is a lot of talk about shrimp and tuna, and about a diversified fishery in other sectors. What is your objective for the traditional fishery?

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Merci beaucoup.

In Indonesia, the first priority now is what we call the revitalization of agriculture and fisheries. Why? Because there's a very big problem in Indonesia with poverty and with the unemployment rate. Poverty is extremely bad in Indonesia, with unemployment and underemployment.

Most of the fishermen, 60% of our population, stay in the coastal areas, in the small islands, and maybe 80% of them live in poverty. So the big problem now is how to reduce poverty, and the second one is how to reduce unemployment for the fishermen. This is our big priority, not the commercial fishing.

On the other hand, we have a big problem with illegal fishing. They come from Thailand, from China, from Korea, from Taiwan, or from Vietnam to the Indonesian ocean, and then there is a very big problem with illegal fishing. That is why the traditional fishermen of Indonesia are still below the poverty line. The first priority of the Indonesian government and of course of our standing committee, our commission, is how to reduce the poverty of the fishermen and how to reduce unemployment in the fishermen's area. It's the big problem.

The second one, of course, commercial fishing, is only the second priority, not the first priority. That is why we now give subsidies to the traditional fishermen. But for that we need new laws, a new act, to protect the coastal and small island areas, because we don't have enough laws for that.

We know that here in your country you have a Coastal Fisheries Protection Act, 1985, the Oceans Act, the Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act, the Parks Canada Agency Act, the Coasting Trade Act--you have so many acts here. So that is why we would like to learn about your system, about your acts, about your regulations, about your management, about how you protect your coastal areas.

And of course the population has stayed in these areas. This is a big problem in Indonesia now. That is why we would like to learn about the system of Canada, how to protect not only the fishermen but also the ecosystem of the small islands and the coastal zones in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to each and every one of you for coming to visit with us today to discuss issues of mutual concern on the fishery.

In Canada right now we have a discussion going on within the fishery of whether or not it should be a more private fishery in commercial hands, to be dictated by, for example, the department regarding resources and where it should go, or whether it should remain a common property resource, which means it is owned by the people of Canada, to be distributed in that sort of equitable manner. So that is the discussion that we're having now.

As you may or may not know, New Zealand and Iceland have moved to having private fisheries called ITQs, which are individual transferable quotas. That means that if the state gives an individual fisherman a quota, that individual could transfer that quota to somebody else and receive some remuneration for that.

That is a debate we're having in this country. Some countries have gone that way, and it's been quite successful. Others have said it hasn't been successful. So that's one of the considerations your government would have to take into effect and would have to study.

Also, the protection of fish habitat requires enforcement. How seriously do you want to add that enforcement? In Iceland they have 50-metre guns on top of their vessels to assure any fishing violators that they will be persuaded not to do that anymore, if I may put it that way. That is something to be taken into consideration. As well, there is the need to set up certain fragile ecosystems within Indonesian waters as no-fish zones, for fish habitats and for nursery grounds for the stocks, because they need a place to go to thrive without there being any attempt to catch them while they're in those areas. So a chain of marine protected areas would need to be established as well.

Those are just some of the concerns I think you would need to look at in that particular regard.

Go right ahead.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Yes, thank you very much for that.

That's right. We'd like to see the text of the acts, and know how to implement and enforce the acts.

There are some problems. In Indonesia, we have an environmental protection act, but the big problem is how to implement it, how to enforce it. We don't have enough power to enforce the ecological protection act.

Of course, I thank you very much.