Fisheries Committee on May 17th, 2007

[Kevin Stringer]

Yes, there is also Italy. There is in reality a very small quantity that is sent to Europe, but for us, it is not really a market issue. We believe in fact that they are wrong, and we are trying to deal with that. But it is difficult.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

For me, it is a matter of truth. I tell myself that the truth will always win out.

[Kevin Stringer]

That is correct.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Except that in this case, it is demagoguery that has won out.

[Kevin Stringer]

Yes.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I would like you to share with me more specific details regarding the efforts that must be made. Is there a plan for all of this? Is there a strategy in the making? Do we intend to set up a group that would have resources allocated to it?

[Kevin Stringer]

Yes, we have a lot of plans and we can share them with you. I myself went to Germany and Belgium. I met with a group of German parliamentarians to answer their questions. We do this quite often.

This year, we spent a lot of time preparing communications material for our missions. We met with parliamentarians and with journalists. We also invited journalists to come here, to go to the Magdalen Islands and to Newfoundland in order to meet with sealers. We are therefore doing many things.

We will be able to be more specific on the subject of what we have done and what we can do in the future when we respond to your report and to your recommendations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stringer.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for coming today.

I have a couple of things, one of them for our researcher. Regarding the announcement of the opening of the crab season for areas 12, 18, 25, and 26 the other day, our researcher found it just a little difficult to find the information about it. In fact we got the initial information from a gentleman who was presenting on that area.

I ask this out of ignorance. Is there a way that plans announced for various fishing seasons can be in a central repository that's easy to access, not only for our researcher but for our own staff to be able to get that information fairly quickly, if possible, without having to hunt it down?

Concerning the estimates, various funds come from the Pacific Salmon Treaty that help in conservation efforts on the west coast. I realize that the exact figures can't be in the estimates, because they're not approved by Treasury Board but come from another area. Is it not possible to have a reference in the estimates to where we can find that information and ascertain where those funds actually went, so that in case people from the west coast ask us questions, we can have the information fairly readily available?

I have a question to ask on behalf of my colleague Catherine Bell, who represents Vancouver Island North. She works with various salmon conservation groups, and one of the concerns they have is the seal predation on their stocks in some of these rivers. They fear that they're spending all this time just growing seal food, because the seals are getting quite abundant on the west coast. They're having a bit of a challenge working with DFO, ascertaining what to do with the seals on the west coast.

I understand there's a lot of political sensitivity in B.C. with the environmental groups on this issue, but I'm wondering what the department can do to assist these conservation groups to enhance their salmon stocks in the various rivers—and to prevent, in other words, the seals' eating up all their work.

[Larry Murray]

Thanks very much for those questions. Mr. Stringer may want to say something about the first and third ones, but we'll work with the clerk to ensure that you get.... There's no reason why the committee can't have timely information available on the release of fish plans. I would say that's a requirement for the committee. We'll work with the clerk to come up with something that's satisfactory.

I might ask Mr. Hegge to respond on the funding issue and how we capture things in the main estimates. Making main estimates useful to Parliament is certainly of great interest to the government. Some dialogue around that is probably a good idea, given the dance we've gone around on the various documents. Some dialogue and feedback on what works for you would probably be quite helpful to the whole system.

[Cal Hegge]

The only thing I would add is I think it's a reasonable request, and I'd like to look into it and come back with an answer.

[Larry Murray]

On the seal question, is there anything you want to say?

[Kevin Stringer]

For area 12 crab, the opening was released by a “notice to fisher”. Some of the plans are released by a big announcement and some are done by notice to fisher. What we need to do, obviously, is make sure that when there's a notice to fisher the committee members are aware—or at least that there's a central repository, an obvious location you can go to in order to find it. We can certainly do that. But this is why it would happen.

On the west coast, you're right that the issue with respect to seals is controversial. That said, we've had seal culls on the west coast in the past. Not many people are aware of that. It's been some years—I think it was 1998 or something like that—since we had the last one. It was a grand total of 30 seals, I think. So it has happened.

On the issue of the interaction between seals and salmon, obviously in each interaction the seals win. But it's not absolutely certain what the actual relationship is in terms of seals eating certain species that eat certain species that eat certain species, or seals eating herring and herring eat salmon larvae—or cod larvae, in the east. In any case, it's not absolutely clear what the relationship is.

That said, there is a seal predation workshop coming up, a significant one that we're planning for the fall and for next year, to look at this both for the east coast and the west coast, so that we get a better understanding of it. In the meantime, we are hearing, from salmon fishermen in particular but also from others, that they think there's a growing concern about it, and we are working with them and monitoring.

[Larry Murray]

If I might just add to that, it's definitely environmental groups as well. Rick Hansen himself, in terms of the concerns about the Fraser River, has expressed a real concern about the impact of seals on salmon in the river and all that. So it is something that does require some attention. There's a growing consensus, I think, around that reality.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

My very last question, Mr. Da Pont—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Actually, there is no very last question, Mr. Stoffer. You've had your very last question—well, not the very last one today, I'm certain.

Before we go to our next questioner, perhaps we could just have a point of clarification for the benefit of Mr. Simms' question, and Mr. Blais' question as well.

On the ban by Belgium of seal products, which is against the WTO rules and all rules of international trade—and I appreciate Foreign Affairs' involvement—wouldn't the issue be here for the Department of International Trade to actually engage? I've spoken with International Trade, and I want to know specifically, in the consultative phase of the appeal, are we still within that window? There's a point here where you come into a more elaborate phase to challenge Belgium's position. At this phase, I thought we had until May 15, that we could still consult and be consulted on it. Can I have some clarification on that?

[Larry Murray]

We can certainly talk to the WTO, and International Trade is involved for sure in the dialogue that's happening as we speak. But in terms of that specific question, I'm not sure.

Michaela, do you want to take that one on?

I suspect we'll have to get back to you in relation to that specific date.

[Michaela Huard, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes, I'm not actually specifically sure of the time period around the appeal. I'm not aware that there's any limitation that we have. We have been discussing it with International Trade Canada. I have a meeting this afternoon with the ambassador. There's an interdepartmental meeting tomorrow to look specifically at some of the options. I'm not aware of there being any limitation in time.

There are a number of options that you can take with respect to launching an action under the WTO. It isn't just the action that we think of as in softwood lumber. There are other options. But we are looking at it very vigorously to see what is the best position. It's a little awkward, because Belgium doesn't import. But we are concerned about the issue. We are concerned about its being a potential thin edge of a wedge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I appreciate that. I think Mr. Simms' comment and Monsieur Blais' comment was that the issue shouldn't be whether Belgium imports or not. The issue is that this is the first domino in a string of dominoes, and we're very cognizant of that.

[Michaela Huard]

Absolutely, and that's why we're concerned about it being the thin edge of the wedge, and we have to deal with this one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start off with the issue of seals that was just discussed there. I'm glad it was raised, because it is a concern: seal predation on our salmon stocks.

Fishermen in my riding have a tough competition trying to get their salmon in—I'm talking about the sport fishermen now, on the east side of the island. If they do hook one, sometimes those seals follow that salmon right up there and he's lucky to pull in the head. I know one man, at least, who ran his boat up on the rocks on an island trying to get his salmon back from a seal that was headed that way. So it is an issue. I'm laughing about it, but it is becoming a serious issue.

Taking it beyond seals, in regard to one of their cousins, the California sea lion, the increase in populations on the west coast is becoming a real concern. You'd probably be aware that a new problem has developed with the sea lions going after the aquaculture nets here. We have one company in particular, out of Tofino, Creative Salmon Company, which is renowned, in spite of the negative connotation for salmon aquaculture, for doing local Pacific species. They're doing chinook, and they don't use chemicals. They do it naturally. But with the predation from these animals now, with the double nets.... There have been a number of incidents where they will charge the nets and get the salmon to one side and will actually bite through the net and catch the salmon on one side. So they've double-walled the nets. Recently, they've managed to get between the nets and get trapped in there. But these animals are so hungry, they are going after the aquaculture salmon and are quite determined. It is becoming quite a serious problem. So I just put that on the radar.

In our discussions about science, I know it's a good question to ask: We don't seem to have a lot of money going to aquaculture, but are there any attempts being made to help the aquaculture industry in developing better technology to deal with these kinds of predatory problems? Maybe that's a place to start.

[Larry Murray]

I'll ask Wendy to start, and we actually have an aquaculture person in the room as well. I don't know whether Mark has more information. We are working with the industry on other elements of development, but I'm not aware that we're engaged in that one. In fact, I wasn't aware of the sea lion issue until that tragedy in which a number of them got trapped.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Maybe we don't need to dwell too long on that. I just wanted to raise the issue.

I would also say there was an issue with this company with regard to malachite green not long ago, which the department and the CFIA got involved in. This company does not use malachite green, and we talked briefly after the last meeting with Wendy Watson-Wright about this issue on the way out.

There are very big concerns that some of the very ideologically driven extremists in the environmental movement had actually been seen diving in the vicinity of the net. The problem we had in that period was that we had zero tolerance for malachite green, which is found in the environment in small amounts, and we had no idea what these people might have released in trace amounts into the environment prior to those samples being taken. I'm glad, with that particular man, that there was a lawsuit, and it was settled in favour of the company.

I just want it put on the record that there are some very serious challenges in trying to manage this. I'm glad the department was able to work out with CFIA and with Health Canada involvement a reasonable level of tolerance to avoid these problems in the future.

Having said that, I'll go in another direction, and it's about science. I'd like to ask a few specific questions about the main estimates.

On the science budget I'm trying to reconcile the two different presentations we have here. There seems to be a difference in the amounts. This particular panel here is an overview of the 2007-2008 main estimates, and then we have another series of decks, the overview; this one says April 2007.

The numbers aren't quite the same. The overall budget for the department, I think, is $1.5386 billion, or $1,500 million; the other one says $1,596 million, so obviously there's a change in the budget there somehow, and it reflects in the science numbers as well.

Maybe we can just start with explaining on the science portions we see broken down there. I see “Science--SFA” at $191 million on page 7 of this second set of tiles that were provided to us, dated April 2007. Could you explain what “Science--SFA” is, what “Science--HAPAE” is, and what “Science--SAW” is, just briefly? I think the two departments.... The only ones worse than DFO for acronyms are DND and--what's the other one for acronyms? There's another one that's really bad too. Could you help us out?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

The office of the PMO.