Fisheries Committee on May 31st, 2007

[Al Kathan]

They're all in the prairies or the Northwest Territories.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

From that perspective, I'm not sure if.... You mentioned Lake Winnipeg and some of these places in Manitoba and out on the prairie provinces. They would seem to be some of the larger ones, but most of the commercial fishing that happens in Alberta happens in the wintertime. I think there are some opportunities out there, but from a sense perspective.... Do we have a lot of commercial fishing going on in the prairie provinces during the summertime?

[Al Kathan]

We do, and we have some in Alberta, but you're right--among a lot of the fisheries around Lesser Slave Lake, some are summer and some winter. Most of the sites are identified in Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's interesting.

I believe you were asked a direct question about the actual budget for the central region. I didn't hear what your answer was. Was it $6.2 million?

[Al Kathan]

It's $6.3 million.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Okay.

I'm going to change the line of questioning now, and anybody can take this if they feel like it.

I'm getting the sense from the discussions here that the money you get on an operational basis on a yearly basis is more of a budgeting issue. If you don't use the money in that particular fiscal year, I don't know if it gets clawed back or if you're able to keep that money, but obviously these projects span more than one fiscal year. To give me a sense, is this money allocated for small craft harbours mostly a maintenance type of thing? How do you get that into a capital budget? Capital budgets, of course, are provided for three or four years over the life of a capital-intensive project. How does that happen, from a budgeting perspective?

[Bill Goulding]

Small craft harbours as a program is quite to the contrary of having a track record of lapsing money. We're more likely to be the recipient sector in the department when other sectors have trouble meeting their expenditure plans. We don't necessarily suffer too much from lapsing or having funding clawed back, but certainly it points to the whole aspect of public financial administration; there is a capital budget and an O&M budget, and you're trying to mix and move between and make sure that the projects fit within what the allocation has precisely been provided for. We don't lapse much funding and we're usually pretty accommodating when it comes to using the resources of other sectors.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. MacAulay, I know you want to pick up where you left off.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Goulding, or anybody, do you find a difference in the costing for repairs? There was always a major concern about small craft harbour repairs, the cost of the repairs, and the engineering requirements, and I don't suspect that the engineering requirements have changed. To go back to the question of lapsed funds, I could use them all in our area for sure. Do you find that there's much difference in the actual cost of the repairs now?

Probably none of you were around here before these harbour authorities came into play, but I would suspect there has probably been more input given by the fishermen who use the wharves, and probably that has helped in the cost of small craft harbour repair in general. Is that a fact or not? It's to whoever wishes to answer. I don't know if you have any facts or figures, or any thoughts on it.

[Gervais Bouchard]

I think your question is very important. It's very important for the department to count on their work to do the job. That's why it's very important for us to delegate some of the maintenance work to the harbour authorities. It's very important because I think we can save a lot of money by doing that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Do you mean because the harbour authorities are involved?

[Gervais Bouchard]

They are involved in the process and they can manage minor projects. For example, in the Quebec region we delegate a lot of work to the harbour authorities. It's clear to us that we saved a lot of money in doing that. They don't always have the knowledge to manage these types of projects, but minor projects below $400,000 are a good range for them to manage. The department has to find a way to enable them to manage work.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

They're not constructors and they're not contractors; they're fishermen. And whatever help you can give would be great. I don't think they would be offended if you said you were helping. But sometimes they have felt that the requirements, when they were not involved, were a lot more.

Now, I don't believe--and you can elaborate on it--that the engineering requirements would change, but it seems to me the overall costs probably have changed some. I don't want to dwell on that, but....

[Gervais Bouchard]

Another thing is, we have to meet a lot of standards. Very often they don't know exactly what the impacts are to do a job. But we have to explain and we have to teach them how we have to realize these types of projects.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

But I expect they have input. And also, you mentioned under $400,000, but they would still have the engineering requirements as if it were a $1 million project too, would they? Or is there a difference there?

I'd also like you to touch on.... Mr. Goulding mentioned $40,000 and under, and I understand we've used $50,000 and under for emergency repair in different areas a lot of times. Are those two different things? I'm just not straight on that.

[Bill Goulding]

The $40,000 is a contracting authority. The President of the Treasury Board delegates to the department construction contracting authority. That's the authority to enter into a contract with a harbour authority.

The project authority of $50,000 is precisely that, the project approval authority within the department. So we would find it useful if those two figures were the same, but they're not. So one is $40,000 for entering into a contract, and $50,000 is the level of authority that's been delegated to me, as the regional director in Newfoundland, for initiating works.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

But can this $50,000 be contract too? No, it's just general repair.

[Bill Goulding]

It's not a sole-source contract to a harbour authority.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

No.

We had the harbour authority people here a few months ago. One of their major problems--and all parties can take credit for this--is that there's not enough money in the small craft harbours budget for them to do what needs to be done. They, and I'm sure everybody here, are concerned. And it didn't just happen today. But a lot more money is needed in the small craft harbours budget for these people to be able to do their job. No doubt you've heard a lot of this.

What kind of money is required to put what you have authority for in certain areas? You have three different regions represented here. So how much money is needed to put these wharves in reasonable shape?

The problem I think we have with the wharves is that we're always playing catch-up. We're always putting up barricades. And you talk about estimating what it's going to cost for the year. You can't estimate storms, though I know this emergency funding can be put in place, but things happen that you can't account for.

I'd like you to comment on that. We're always playing catch-up. What needs to happen? You have a good view of the whole situation. What needs to happen, and what dollars are required to put these wharves in decent shape so we could be maintaining wharves in reasonable shape instead of taking down barricades?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you for that question, Mr. MacAulay, but you will have to wait for the answer. It took you nearly a minute and ten seconds to ask that question, and you are over by a minute.

Monsieur Blais is anxious to ask another question.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You're going to have to answer when we get to the next round, gentlemen. I'm sorry to do that to you.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You're not a bit.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Perhaps I can help you a little, Mr. MacAulay, because your question is similar to the one I wanted to ask. But first I would like to clarify one point. Earlier, Mr. Bouchard mentioned a figure that is different from the one I have.

You say that in Quebec, 30 to 40 per cent of the annual budget is for dredging operations.

[Gervais Bouchard]

That is 40 per cent of the operations and maintenance budget.