Fisheries Committee on May 31st, 2007

[Gervais Bouchard]

The amount forecast at the beginning of the year does not include all the capital projects. The variation between the figures at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year is due to capital projects that are approved during the year. So the money for them is added later. That is why we often compare budgets at the beginning of the year with those at the end of the year, because funds are regularly added for capital projects that are approved during the year.

As I was saying earlier, the operations and maintenance budget remains relatively constant, because it is based on the program allocation, which is fixed and determined according to a budget allocation formula. This amount remains relatively constant.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

In the case of the major capital projects, if we look at the breakdown, I would say that the percentages seem quite random in nature. I see here 30 per cent for the department's contributions, accomplishments and outcomes, 20 per cent for strategies, 15 per cent based on the needs of outside clients, financial performance, deadlines, and so on. Apparently there are two calculation methods. One is for projects up to $1 million and the other is for projects worth $1 million or more, what you referred to as major capital projects. Do you think this system is fair for Quebec?

[Gervais Bouchard]

With respect to the current system, we should remember that the regions are very much involved in the Small Craft Harbours Program. Most of the major capital projects, those involving large investments, are determined according to merit, because they are evaluated using set criteria. In addition, they are evaluated by peer review committees, where all the regions come together to discuss national priorities. Subsequently, regional directors come to an agreement on the major capital projects. I think that all the regions can put forward their priorities. These people can see which project can be carried out and when, within the budget available, which is always the major issue.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Let me ask the question differently. If you could change the current way of allocating the budget, would you like that to be done? What changes would you like to see?

[Gervais Bouchard]

As Mr. Hegge said on Tuesday, we will undertake a review of the budget issue. He made a commitment to do that. I cannot really answer your question.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

That was my most difficult question.

[Gervais Bouchard]

It is a somewhat more difficult question, but I can say that there is good cooperation among the regions and genuine openness to reallocating budgets when national priorities are on the table.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I imagine there is a type of competition among the regions. Whether we like it or not, when there are two allocation systems, that marks are awarded based on some figures that cannot be changed, that percentages may be allocated depending on the way a project is viewed by head office, I imagine that there is competition among the regions to get more money. You say—and everyone has said the same thing—that there is not enough money. So I assume there is some conflict among the regions.

[Gervais Bouchard]

Yes, but I think the regions are locked in a friendly struggle. And it is very important that all the regions balance their projects. In other words, we evaluate our regional criteria, and then, we do a national consolidation. We talk about all the criteria, and then we adjust the various regional priorities to come up with a national plan. In the course of these discussions we develop the investment plan for the Small Craft Harbours Branch. That is also when we can make a pitch for our priorities, when that is necessary.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

How much is the initial 2007-08 budget for your region, Mr. Goulding?

[Bill Goulding]

The current budget for small craft harbours, Newfoundland region, is $26.5 million.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

So the budget is $26.5 million.

What is your budget, Mr. Kathan?

[Al Kathan]

It's $6.3 million.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

That was the easy question. Now I will turn to the more difficult one.

Mr. Goulding, if the allocation of the budget has to be changed, would you be in favour of reviewing the process, in light of what Mr. Hegge told us on Tuesday? Would you be in favour of reviewing assumptions and objectives? At the moment, there is a review under way of how the system works. Would you be in favour of that, even if it meant that ultimately you had a little less money?

[Bill Goulding]

Well, I think it's always positive for government and departments to review their policies and approaches towards things, so it's difficult to argue that a review wouldn't be of value just to make sure that it's still on the mark. Just in the Newfoundland region context, you have approximately a third of the fishing vessels in Canada in Newfoundland. You have a quarter of the small craft harbours asset base in Newfoundland, the core asset base that's used by the fishing industry. Our share under the budget allocation formula, Newfoundland's share, I think right now is 28%, so it lands somewhere in the middle. I think it's always appropriate that we review and look at these things.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

But you understand—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

We'll have to continue this line of questioning in the next round. We are over by a minute and a half. I know Mr. Stoffer wants to get his question in.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, thank you. I apologize for being late this morning.

Gentlemen, I have one question for you, more or less. In Nova Scotia we have a continuous problem with the Digby wharf. The problem down there is whether or not it's the responsiliblity of the small craft harbours program, Public Works, or Transport Canada. The place is mess. The divestiture of that wharf was an unmitigated disaster by any account. I guess we're trying to prevent that from happening anywhere else in the country.

I know the Atlantic person may not necessarily be here this morning, but I'm wondering if you could tell me. A couple of weeks ago in the newspaper there was a big picture of guys chaining parts of the wharf together, just so they could have some stability on that wharf. They're arguing, well, it's either Transport Canada's responsibility or small craft harbours' responsibility or the harbour authority's responsibility.

I was wondering if you could help us out. Are you aware of the Digby problem? Can you tell us what plans are afoot in order to correct the problem they have down there in Nova Scotia? Of if you can't, is it possible to take this question to the people responsible directly for that, either here or in Transport Canada, just so we can tell those fishermen in the community of Digby that help is on the way to get this thing straightened out once and for all?

[Bill Goulding]

Mr. Stoffer, our colleague from the Maritimes gulf region is scheduled to be here next Thursday. Maybe it would be better addressed at that time.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Next Thursday, okay, great. Thank you.

I have another point, and it's sort of a chicken-or-the-egg question. When in a fishing community the fishing opportunities die down and people lose their ability, like Canso for example and other communities, and they have a wharf but there won't be any fishing activity at this particular time, yet that harbour needs repairs to be done in order to attract other opportunities, how does small craft harbours look at that situation? When a quota has been moved from one community to another, and the boats are moved or the boats are sold or the people have gotten out of the industry, you have a small craft harbour that really isn't being utilized any more, and the people are saying, well, look, if we can get it back up to snuff, maybe we can attract something. What is the approach of the small craft harbours program in that particular type of situation?

[Gervais Bouchard]

I can try to answer your question. In most cases, when a port has little or no activity, the department's mandate is really to provide services to support the commercial fishery. In some cases, there are social considerations involved in the closing down of a wharf. Most of the time, fishermen are offered options to relocate to places where there is an acceptable level of service and where they can continue their commercial fishing activities in an efficient manner. This is how it works. We always work with the communities. We also try to optimize the essential facilities, that is to centralize most of the fishers in order to give them the best possible service. It is much more economical for the department to function in this way. At the same time, in some cases we also have to take into account social considerations or matters of community interest. Each case is different. Each one needs to be looked at individually.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Manning.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our guests here, and I'd like to say hello to Mr. Goulding from Newfoundland and Labrador, who I've had many conversations with. I'm looking forward to having many more. And from the Newfoundland and Labrador perspective, as I said to Mr. Blais, we're always looking for more money, not less.

With that, I want to follow up on the questions from Mr. Blais on the budgeting and distribution of funding. Criteria have been in place, it's my understanding, since 2001-02. Did I hear you correctly when you said that in Newfoundland and Labrador we have one-third of the fishing fleet of Canada, or whatever it is, plus the number of harbours that we have?

If I look at the allocation form that's in place, it's based on replacement value of core fishing harbours, the commercial fishing fleet, the number of harbour authorities, the number of core fishing harbours, and the number of harbour sites. I believe those are the five criteria in place. That brings us out to around 28.4%. Is that the process, the same allocation form, that's used right across the country?

[Bill Goulding]

The same formula is used across the country.